Cody Pomeroy :

mhm

2008-03-16 14:16:31

ROTATOR :

+ it's a great album, even though it's on Sub-Pop...

2008-03-15 08:29:16

ROTATOR :

Clowes L.P. cover for Thee Headcoats "Heavens To Murgatroyd, Even! It's ..." is fantastic

2008-03-15 08:28:18

ricv64 :

4. nobody ever qoutes Marcel Duchamp

2008-03-15 08:19:24

goad74 :

Things I learned from this poster 1. Stealing is bad. 2. Art Chantry is bored. 3. Robbie likes pancakes.

2008-03-15 07:46:26

Robbie Fuct :

i like pancakes!

2008-03-15 07:23:34

Holly :

I've been reading up. Thyme and Lavendaer are really good for your skin.

2008-03-14 21:03:24

Barry Obama :

my nutsac is redolent of thyme and lavender.

2008-03-14 20:52:54

ricv64 :

if only the art critics from (Here's ) ArtForum could read this

2008-03-14 20:42:59

altieri :

HEY! WAIT A MINUTE!! THIS GUY USED ANOTHER ARTISTS WORK!! WTF!!

2008-03-14 18:56:20

Baloney Boy :

well i agree about Kruger too, but it's not just her - the entire "high art" edifice presupposes some sort of "low art" (or "popular culture") to be appropriated - an arbitrary distinction, as i've said, that is ultimately only about reinforcing class divisions, just as the "intellectual property" con only exists to extend the territory of the ruling class into our very souls

2008-03-14 17:36:52

HYNES :

thats 3 people who agree with me...

2008-03-14 17:06:13

ricv64 :

Hynes is correct

2008-03-14 17:05:21

ROTATOR :

...fuckin Italian designers.

2008-03-14 17:03:56

HYNES :

Barbara Krueger was a one trick pony and deserves to be flogged.

2008-03-14 17:03:33

ricv64 :

Barbara Kruger ripped off a flyer and made it museum art

2008-03-14 16:58:37

HYNES :

phoenetically speaking "HEAVY METAL" just sounds so much cooler than "HIP HOP" Hip hop sounds sounds like a surgery old folks get when they fall getting out of the shower.

2008-03-14 16:58:12

MaximumFluoride :

I'm thinking if it's a flyer and not a limited edition screen print for sale... it's really not a big deal. At all that there is a swiped illo on this.

2008-03-14 16:56:05

ricv64 :

Mike bildo , Sherry levine , barbera kruger

2008-03-14 16:53:37

Sash :

there is a legal/ethical side and an artistic side. artistically, I agree there should be no rules.

2008-03-14 16:51:46

HYNES :

in the 80s, there was a similar argument re: free vs. copyrighted beats in hip hop. Ahh, so thats where i get my opinion on hip hop from. Guitarz-played-by-humanz-4eva-yo!

2008-03-14 16:51:09

Sash :

well, I think most people would agree that those albums didn't plagiarize so much as utilize beats in the same way that most artists would use, say, colors. but of course colors are free and natural, and someone MADE those beats.

2008-03-14 16:49:54

Baloney Boy :

Re: Sash - exactly!! and look what happened, it ruined hip hop! never again will there be another 3 Feet High & Rising or Paul's Boutique

2008-03-14 16:46:10

Baloney Boy :

well, i'm kinda sorta jerkin a chain, too....devil's advocate style. but only kinda sorta

2008-03-14 16:45:08

Sash :

in the 80s, there was a similar argument re: free vs. copyrighted beats in hip hop

2008-03-14 16:43:16

ricv64 :

actualy no one is outraged , it's a slow news day and they're just jerkin your chain

2008-03-14 16:17:10

HYNES :

You know - i appreciate the way your presenting your argument but like i said its flawed based on established and accepted approaches hashed out over years on this site, directly stemming from posters like this. you're not the first person to voice these opinions and this isnt the first poster to instigate them. Seeing as how you agree with at least something i said i'll retract the 'yo momma' comment i made - it was misinformed and just plain wrong. See how easy it is to admit? your turn now...

2008-03-14 16:16:50

Josh Rickun :

baloney.

2008-03-14 16:06:47

Baloney Boy :

i agree with Hynes, too - "the best ones are both." and if the role of art is, as i believe, to challenge the norms & conventions of respectable society, and to thereby push society ahead, then a rock poster must aim to challenge such norms - just as this one has, perhaps inadvertantly, outraged the "ethics" of this online society

2008-03-14 16:05:05

ricv64 :

if this guy got paid to do this and the check bounced , score one for recontextualisation . " Great art is horseshit buy tacos "- Bukowski said that too

2008-03-14 15:50:13

HYNES :

"rock posters are advertising. Not artistic endeavor" the best ones are both.

2008-03-14 15:46:52

victor_howitzer :

Hynes is right. It's shjt and no amount of talk is going to change that. You could hang it on your wall though and explain to people why it's awesome.

2008-03-14 15:43:43

MaximumFluoride :

rock posters are advertising. Not artistic endeavor

2008-03-14 15:43:41

HYNES :

or just fuck yo momma. This poster is a pile of plageurised shite. end of story..

2008-03-14 15:42:03

Baloney Boy :

fuck what my momma tole me... everybody here just wants to follow rules?? rules are for suckers....the more i think about this, the more i like this poster, it's like a big middle finger to all your rules...hooray Refi Andrea!

2008-03-14 15:40:04

HYNES :

gah

2008-03-14 15:36:41

HYNES :

It's established ethics in this genre of design at this stage - ethics echoed by the community here. Thats how it goes, sorry. You cant really fight it i suppose - surely your mama told you stealing was wrong? I like that i guy called Baloney Boy is setting up these statements - BALONEY to you my friend. its also slightly funny that Frank spelled retarded wrong not on purpose

2008-03-14 15:34:49

HYNES :

It's established ethics in this genre of design at this stage - ethics echoed by the community here. Thats how it goes, sorry. You cant really fight it i suppose - surely your mama told you stealing was wrong? I like that i guy called Baloney Boy is setting up these statements - BALONEY to you my friend. its also slightly funny that Frank spelled retarded wrong not on purpose

2008-03-14 15:34:14

kozik :

r u all still going over this reatrded piece of shit?

2008-03-14 15:25:16

Baloney Boy :

i didn't make this! i'm just talkin shit. but this need to find meaningful nuance between "appropriation," "borrowing," and "stealing" is what is a load of shite! it's all the same thing, and if you accept one, then you must accept the other, "recontextualisation" be damned! why the hang-ups? why the need to justify your appropriations, or to damn those who haven't done enough, in your eye, to recontextualise? we are artist, not lawyers!! absolute freedom is the only value that has any meaning within artistic endeavor, all else is bourgeois tomfoolery!

2008-03-14 15:25:12

Ruthless Cow :

You didn't design this? I though you were Refi Andrea. No offense, but I'm heading back to planet earth now - bye bye.

2008-03-14 15:12:41

HYNES :

By stealing from clowes you are essentially ripping off someone working within a) the same period, b) a similar 'underground' niche (comics/posters etc), c) someone with the ability to create images with the 'vibe' you are obviously seeking. there is no recontextualisation, no ironic statement attributed to the usage, no apparent reasoning for its usage in connection to this particular band apart from a full-of-holes generic artist defense taken out of context from past masters working in a n entirely different field. If you were rcontextualising dennis the menace say, your argument might hold a little water - as is, its a misinformed pile of shite, You DO know better.

2008-03-14 15:10:16

victor_howitzer :

There was a time in the 20th century that this was known as a poster and not a flyer.

2008-03-14 15:06:10

Baloney Boy :

authorship is an outdated 20th Century concept. you really don't understand that? i'd never do anything like this flyer myself, but i defend other artists' right to do so, because i believe that "intellectual property" is a fraud & a crime

2008-03-14 14:41:37

Ruthless Cow :

Yeah – that quote isn’t about scanning and re-printing other peoples art and signing your name to it. You really don’t understand that? Morally I couldn’t care less if you plagiarize all your work - justify it any way you’d like - it doesn’t effect me at all. I do think it negatively effects your work though - because it forces folks to question all your work’s authorship, even when it is yours.

2008-03-14 14:36:52

deforgeo :

welcome to grade 10 art class everyone

2008-03-14 14:08:00

Baloney Boy :

how do you know what he was talking about? and what's the difference, anyway, between an idea and an image? in modernism, the pictorial form IS the subject matter - the image IS the idea. i think he meant that quite literally, and his best work verifies it

2008-03-14 14:06:34

philaarts.com :

he liked steak however, right? srsly.

2008-03-14 13:55:24

seriplop :

picasso was talking about ideas , not images. you fail art history 101.

2008-03-14 13:46:10

Sash :

picasso painted steaks better than he ate paintings

2008-03-14 13:43:53

criminaldesign :

picasso ate steak better than he painted.

2008-03-14 13:33:35

ricv64 :

it's been reference and constantly brought up on this site by many . " Picasso painted better after he ate a steak ' - Bukowski said that

2008-03-14 13:21:33

Baloney Boy :

had anybody even mentioned the Picasso quote - "good artists borrow, great ones steal" - yet? that's sort of the elephant in the room

2008-03-14 12:56:46

MaximumFluoride :

I'm still willing to bet this a is flyer and not a poster. I am slo willing to bet no money was made by the creator. Just a guess though.

2008-03-14 12:30:08

art chantry :

whew! i'm glad we managed to settle all that! nice type. should have given the illustrator a credit.

2008-03-14 10:48:18

philaarts.com :

but..

2008-03-14 09:08:06

dennyschmickle :

Tacoma, ta com a ta comat acom at acomata co m atacomataco mat acom at a comat. acom a. taco. - Mataco

2008-03-14 09:05:39

philaarts.com :

stoopard- but im lonley.. i need to tell you everything that ever happened to me.. jerk!!! -dave

2008-03-14 08:59:46

standard :

The only reason you need an opinion or a justification for anything you do is if you need to talk about it. So if you don't talk about it, you don't need to think about it. EASY PEASEY.

2008-03-14 08:56:46

ricv64 :

Dave is greater then Picasso , he created an instantly reconizable style with in two posters. I stole that idea from Pogue but threw in the Picasso reference to up lift it to High Art talk. pogue won't do shit about it cause he's throwing Milkshakes at Danial Danger

2008-03-14 08:54:43

Miss Bailey :

i was talking more about some of this theorizing.

2008-03-14 08:45:37

philaarts.com :

firecrackerfireboom

2008-03-14 08:31:41

dennyschmickle :

(nobody mention RATT pleez)

2008-03-14 08:30:25

philaarts.com :

its punk rock.. he is doing his thing and saying "f u" designers.. ill do what I WANT TO DO. id hang it on my wall :500 word rant: frank yer a jerk!

2008-03-14 08:30:09

Barry Obama :

watthamuthafuck.

2008-03-14 08:28:45

philaarts.com :

THATS WHAT MAKES IT SO AWESOME!!!

2008-03-14 08:28:08

Miss Bailey :

worse than an art school freshman

2008-03-14 08:26:05

ricv64 :

so this is like the first time that an appropriation of that Picasso qoute about stealing has ever been used ?

2008-03-14 07:46:19

philaarts.com :

id hang it on my wall ya know? brainac yer a jerk!!! a jerk!!

2008-03-14 06:48:12

Brainiac :

I have owned and enjoyed Las Vegas Grind for many years. Clowes worked hard to establish a recognizable and appealing style, and it BELONGS TO HIM. The poster sucks cock.

2008-03-14 02:41:14

MrBlonde7 :

Amen, sistah.

2008-03-14 02:05:34

Carlos Artest :

fine, but those drogas.. fuh'get about it

2008-03-14 00:26:37

MrBlonde7 :

I bet he ain't too fond o' you neither.

2008-03-14 00:22:07

Carlos Artest :

i dont even like jesus franco

2008-03-14 00:17:01

ImJustRickG :

Blah blah blah. This thing sucks. So does the "property is theft" argument.

2008-03-13 22:40:48

Barry Obama :

fuck all y'all.

2008-03-13 21:28:36

El Negro Magnifico! :

All I can say is that I'm happy I draw stuff. And if it's influenced by someone, I'm upfront about it.

2008-03-13 20:10:47

MaximumFluoride :

Using a cartoon drawing by somebody else as a design element in your composition is something totally different yet again. I have learned very well over the years that it is all in how you want to argue it. It's all justifiable to some degree. Mostly depending on who stole the image or who created the stolen image in the first place.

2008-03-13 19:53:35

Ruthless Cow :

If you based a new drawing on the original drawing your Picasso argument holds water. Turning a cartoon illustration by someone else into a cartoon illustration by you isn't recontextualization - it's lazy.

2008-03-13 19:45:34

El Negro Magnifico! :

:D

2008-03-13 18:42:10

El Negro Magnifico! :

For the record, I started typing that an hour ago, and this discussion has progressed. I'm supposed to be working.

2008-03-13 18:41:58

El Negro Magnifico! :

I'm not even sure what to think anymore. I'm all for changing the context of an image, and seeing "old school" punk flyers/posters that take stuff from everywhere. Both of those seem to have varying levels of creativity involved. It depends on the end result. What I'll never budge on is someone using another person's work in a "wholesale" fashion, and passing it off as their own, especially if they're making bank off of it.

2008-03-13 18:40:18

philaarts.com :

try doin an admat for less than jake.. now THATS hard.

2008-03-13 18:37:43

Baloney Boy :

Artists - free yourselves of these bourgeois values of "originality" and "property"! Free yourselves of guilt! An image can no more be "owned" than the air!

2008-03-13 18:34:41

MaximumFluoride :

And I agree with Baloney Boy, Chloe and Dave.

2008-03-13 18:32:41

MaximumFluoride :

Honestly Kirk... it wouldn't bother me at all.

2008-03-13 18:32:10

philaarts.com :

drawing is not as easy as stealing.

2008-03-13 18:31:52

philaarts.com :

i appreciate you trying to explain wharol, but you kinda missed his point.. and i dont feel like typing in what it was.. do some seaches on the interweb.

2008-03-13 18:31:22

seriplop :

why not just draw yr own shit?

2008-03-13 18:31:07

Baloney Boy :

the point is, why make these needless distinctions between "lowbrow" & "highbrow" when they're ultimately arbitrary, and useful only for creating value in the "high art" world? Warhol's genius was that he acknowledged just how cynical the art world was in this kind of manipulation while at the same time milking it for every penny

2008-03-13 18:29:12

philaarts.com :

if you dont make the image, you are stealing.. so what if its obscure from some pulp mag that noone will know about.. its stealing. so unless its public domain.. its a lift.

2008-03-13 18:28:04

Hrabovsky :

flip horizontal?

2008-03-13 18:27:30

VonDada :

Maybe not. But, how about this.. I go to Hot Topic, take a pic of one of your kickass metal shirt designs and then use it as a poster and post it here. Aside from the beatdown that would ensue, what's the difference?

2008-03-13 18:26:08

MaximumFluoride :

So now we have to argue about just "how" the context changed? or if it changed to an appropriate level? I'm about an inch away from calling bullshit.

2008-03-13 18:21:54

VonDada :

True, but it's still low brow. Maybe it's more about the heightening of status or recontextualizing the piece vis a vis Irony or socio/political commentary, hence lifting it out of it's common or low-brow context?

2008-03-13 18:12:34

ricv64 :

Picasso and his homeboy Juan Gris , AKA Mr Grey , AKA Mr nobody , use to do comics for a Zaragoza street rag in 1902

2008-03-13 18:11:08

MaximumFluoride :

This image is no longer in the context it was created.

2008-03-13 18:08:27

Baloney Boy :

yes, the contextual shift - from comics to gallery, "low" art to "high" - was the sleight of hand that created value. gosh, Roy, thanks for deigning to show us (and upper class art consumers, in particular) that comic art could be beautiful!

2008-03-13 18:08:04

ricv64 :

Tacoma , Dayton , Barcelona , whats the difference ?

2008-03-13 18:04:01

VonDada :

Yeah. It's all about context. Without context, it's just a urinal, not a work of art.

2008-03-13 18:03:50

Seamus McClernan :

The problem with the below arguement is that the Artists cited (particularly Lichtenstein & Warhol) changed the CONTEXT of found imagery - to expose the beauty found in the mundane. This is just lazy.

2008-03-13 17:59:30

Baloney Boy :

lichtenstein - modernist sleight of hand that turned a 10 cent comic into a million dollar canvas

2008-03-13 17:53:37

dennyschmickle :

Picasso was from Tacoma.

2008-03-13 17:52:44

ricv64 :

old saying is Africa starts South of the Pyrenees , Picasso was discovering his roots

2008-03-13 17:50:22

Baloney Boy :

the only difference between "appropriating" and "stealing" is that the "appropriated" idea is pilfered from "low art" sources - tribal art in Picasso's case, comics in Lichtenstein's - and transferred into the rarefied world of "high art" - museums, galleries. an arbitrary distinction used to justify the creation of value

2008-03-13 17:50:00

MaximumFluoride :

I bet this is simply a flyer and not a screened poster. Probably not a big deal to use Clowes stuff in that manner.

2008-03-13 17:46:25

Baloney Boy :

art critics might call it "appropriating," i guess, but a great deal of Picasso's (and Modigliani's) innovations were based on African (or Iberian) tribal masks - artwork that was considered "primitive," unauthored in the Western sense, and outside of the realm of "high art" and the protection of "intellectual property"

2008-03-13 17:44:23

Ruthless Cow :

Ha ha ha - sure - Picasso use to Photoshop Matisse's art all the time. Doesn't everybody knows that?

2008-03-13 17:38:18

seriplop :

and way to TOTALLY miss the point of what warhol and litchenstien were doing. if you are gonna use the fine art wold to base your arguments on , at least have some knowledge of it.

2008-03-13 17:27:51

ricv64 :

Picasso did steal an Iberian Statue

2008-03-13 17:27:16

seriplop :

what images did picasso steal , please school us!

2008-03-13 17:25:40

Baloney Boy :

i'm a commie pinko fag, i admit it

2008-03-13 16:52:24

MaximumFluoride :

Baloney Boy is going to be very popular around here with those ideas about intellectual property. For sure!

2008-03-13 16:50:00

Baloney Boy :

i mean, why is it some base kind of "theft" in this case, but "high art" when done by Lichtenstein - or Warhol, or Picasso, for that matter?

2008-03-13 16:45:57

Baloney Boy :

your argument against "theft' is a purely pragmatic one - a Machiavellian one, i guess. i can appreciate that. but it seems some people have some kind of moral qualm against it - and decrying the WRONGNESS of theft implies the RIGHTNESS of property. in this case, "intellectual property," which i've always felt was a bullshit concept, and one damaging to creativity.

2008-03-13 16:44:31

Baloney Boy :

eh....it's a line from "Wise Blood" i've been wanting to use, sorry. i guess it's an all-american way of saying, "the end justifies the means" or something

2008-03-13 16:39:04

art chantry :

izzat some sorta "old skool" type talk?

2008-03-13 16:33:56

Baloney Boy :

nobody with a good car needs to be justified

2008-03-13 16:28:59

art chantry :

christ. i sure do a good sound-alike imitation of frank, don't i? i could have sworn that was him that wrote that.

2008-03-13 16:18:17

kozik :

dan clowes rules, ripping him off sux

2008-03-13 16:17:22

art chantry :

yeah, what an asshole.

2008-03-13 16:16:54

art chantry :

is that chantry talking to himself again?

2008-03-13 16:16:44

art chantry :

i know, i know. "enough with the boring intellectualisms, chantry." ok, ok i hear ya...

2008-03-13 16:16:13

art chantry :

so does phillarts.

2008-03-13 16:15:33

art chantry :

he hates commie pinko fags.

2008-03-13 16:15:23

art chantry :

i wonder what frank thinks about this....

2008-03-13 16:15:12

art chantry :

probably done up by some commie pinko fag.

2008-03-13 16:14:51

art chantry :

in fact this is an incredibly stupid poster. cool type, tho'...

2008-03-13 16:14:24

art chantry :

stealing may be all-american (for instance: all yuppies steal. it's a fact.) however, stealing something so famous and obvious that you will get caught the first time anybody looks at it is UN-american. getting CAUGHT stealing is downright communism. and it's pretty stupid. i know about this.

2008-03-13 16:12:11

MONGSTERR :

if clowes was dead,he'd be turning in his grave.

2008-03-13 16:10:33

Baloney Boy :

stealing is all-american

2008-03-13 15:57:30

VonDada :

Whoa. What the fuck?

2008-03-13 14:49:05

ROTATOR :

If that was a photo of Less Than Jake, other than a stolen drawing , would it make this poster any better?

2008-03-13 13:04:33

statts kaos :

ha. below. nice layout though.

2008-03-13 12:48:08

seriplop :

dan clowes would do better lettering

2008-03-13 10:35:25

3d glasses :

whoah yeah! http://tralfaz-archives.com/coverart/V/Various/LVgrindf.jpg lots of rips getting iploaded these days!

2008-03-13 10:35:19

electr. :

dude, what were you thinking? uploading a poster that prominently features the las vegas grind cover by daniel clowes. unless you are daniel clowes, I'd say, that was not the smartest move.

2008-03-13 10:32:16

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