Art--I ain't no punk (psych dude yes) but I admire the hell outta punk flyers. You can't take that away from me. As for my books, they've stood the test o' time. I do love the arguments you get yourself into. And I thought this poster always sucked eggs. Yr pal, Paul
grushkin - you don't know anything at all about punk flyers. what the hell you trying to pull? you're a psych dude forever. you wouldn't know tomata du plenty from loud fart. all the poster you favor are elaborately illustrated psych inspired poster images of bands that still play popular rockandroll music. just look at your books. in your first book, when it came to punk, if it didn't have a nyc or san francisco band on the poster, you didn't publish it. in your second book, it looks like the fuirst book. you're a broken record.
punk? you? make me laff, fella.
(ps - this is just calling a little bs on you paul. actually, i love ya.)
per Seabury's comment, Herbie Herbert, for those of you who don't know, was manager of Journey. He commissioned Kelley and Mouse, and then each of them separately, to handle those all to well known album covers (which also became tour and event posters). That's why so many of us early collectors became disgusted, and some of them, like me, were then attracted to the punk flyers (even tho I wasn't a punk rocker).
You know what else was cool about the 70's? Funk. I heard the Ohio Players today. That shit totally ruled (so did their LP covers). Isley Brothers, Zapp, Sly & The Family Stone and Rick James. Parliament's "Flashlight" is still the most booty-shaking song around.
I googled all those, and no. It's weird cause this guy's stuff was everywhere in these shops back then and history has forgotten him. The paintings were very tightly rendered and would often show these huge beings that turned out to be architectural structures that looked like people, with panoramic vistas in the background, etc.
phill - well, obviously, i would. go figger, eh?
there were lotsa folks working in that style you describe. i guess i'd have to see an actual sample to be able to tell you if i know who it was. sorry.
hey art, maybe you can answer this. there was a fantasy artist in the '70s whose paintings were sold as large offset posters in head shops and funky "youth culture" stores throughout, and yet I see no examples of his work in fantasy art books. do you know who I mean? what's his name? the images had a mysterious mood and mythological, surreal, etc. (like a lot of fantasy art, but he had his own distinct take on it)
man, i have a hard believeing what a lot of you guys are saying about all this. cracks me up. it's a fucking poster. what's the big deal?
it's also a dang good one. but, certainly not for the reasons of it's original intent, but for what time has done to the style and the culture since. this was a high point of bad 70's rock art (just like boston and journey). it's a dead style and this thing was part of the death knoll in it's own little way.
the craftsmanship is beyond excellent, the concept is weak (like 99% of the posters ever done for rock) but the attitude of the piece was a PERFECT reflection of the moment and the era and that band and what was happening to rock art and american pop culture.
also, that art deco 70's airbrush look (instigated largely by a guy named charles h. white, III- if memory serves) was ruined by the popular california car styling of the day (NOT van art, though it was popular. did you know von dutch did the first mural on a van?) but by a hugely popular company called known as PAPER MOON GRAPHICS. it's forgotten now, but it was the efforts of paper moon and their greeting cards and posters and books and whatnot that sorta maxed out the california airbrush style and turned it into the bad cliche we now hate. the journey/boston/tutenmousekelly/arenarock crap is all tied in with that territory. it's so hopelessy dead that it's now becoming interesting again. i predict a re-birth of airbrush crap in the near future.
I actually did hate the way the airbrush thing was going back then. It seemed the designs were going corporate just like the bands and record labels. Like the Steve Miller and Journey stuff. Shiny rainbows for stoned hippie wannabes.
Thank you, Herbie Herbert.
I look at that background and can only see repetitive landscape. No striking architectural elements anywhere. And I don't think Kelley, Mouse, or Tuten were referencing disco. All of them were collectors of bric-a-brac, particularly Tuten (who in fact had magnificent models, paintings of ships, etc. etc. all over his house). "Wings" "flying wing" that was their joke. But it never go any further, doesn't draw you in. The deeper you probe, the less there is. All surface.
look, the Boston album cover was pretty cool, and the Steve Miller Unicorn was like the ultimate coked -out fantasy....but all in all I never 'got' why people shat themselves over a bunch of bad art deco swipes and effects.
like...I thought hippies where about 'deep message man'.
Frank, it may indeed be airbrushed van art, but that's what was rollin' from Kelley, Mouse, and Tuten at that moment.
If Wings were paying the artists they would have gotten a lot more than what Graham paid, so it's not "all in the same book."
The poster was a poor seller at the time, in part because it was for Wings, in part because poster collectors found it uninspired, even tho, yes, the lettering is top drawer.
I never thought the background was "hubcaps." I thought it was an attempt to suggest the Wing flying over a landscape. Except that landscape repeated itself, lazily.
So is it a classic now? Not in my opinion. There was better.
... and "airbrushed van art" is bad, right?
i'll write that down.
no one's argueing. we're discussing an interesting classic old poster. we're analyzing it. not argueing.
some people are just making jokes, though. don't be confused by that.
bill graham, wings, all the same in my book. time to cash in.
this is critisized for the band and for the amazing , but uninspired chrome work. seems like a lame crit to me. i think this is great classic poster. it's even classic in unitentional ways.
i think the chrome HAD to be uniform, or it wouldn't look like chrome. if every hubcap had different image, it would look like some sort of disco mirror, or even a comic strip. they had to uniform to complete the illusion. think about it.
I don't dislike the poster because it's for Wings. I dislike it for the artists' lazy approach to the background decoration. And the piece was done for Bill Graham, not for the band, if I'm correct. The lettering is indeed top notch. Unfortunately, this poster led to many commissions which were worse and worser.
k/m were obviously cashing in, making some money they never got for the brilliant work they'd done up to that point (they were robbed blind by bands and promoters ad naseum). an ex-beatle comes along and offers them a shitload to hop on their fading bandwagon and what would you do? obviously, you take the gig and crank it out as easy as possible, but still toss in some stuff that you like. that's what i'd do. that's what you'd do, too, in their position.
the lettering is top notch and that flying wing is cool. the chrome hub background is just filler.
give them a little credit. don't blame a cash-in done with some class on a shitty band like wings. k/m were, and still are, the very best. hating this poster because of the band is missing so much.
and, yes, the 70's sucked in tacoma. sucked everywhere else, too. but you little kids who were (at best) barely alive will only see the nostalgia value. dazed and confused, my ass. yes, that's what is was like at the time this poster was made (mid-70's). not exactly an amazing time even in that film. if you think that film depicts an amazing time, then you must had lead an incredibly dull life.
Seabury makes a good point, but, the problem is they DIDN'T take the time to draw each of the pattern pieces differently, which would have been the whole point, visually speaking. So, instead, you got a lazy piece. Boring. Can't look at it for very long because the repetition is so obvious, so big, so stupidly repeated, and your eye goes right to it and is disappointed. You never even see the Flying Wing--you just go to those chrome-y landscapes and there's nothing. No difference you could explore with your eyes. So, it begs the question . . . what happened to their legendary skills? Were they just lazy?
Grushkin:"Think of what could be done today with that background pattern. My 2 cents."
Actually my point was that back then they drew from scratch and could have made it better,(Escher was doing it)
but today, no one would even think of that. Just copy and paste one image over and over.
Which is what it would be like done today.
In other words, just the same.
FP: Alright, but again, this comes from the papers, so what do I know if it's the truth or not. And I know you can't talk too much about the divorce…
HM: But everyone's jumping on the band wagon making money out of my misery!
FP: I know that and I know you're upset and I know you're only human which is what people are forgetting, but, during the coverage of the divorce case, they have been saying you want £50 million.
HM: I have been offered nothing OK? Nothing! We go to court over my daughter. I'm not allowed to talk about it because it's a criminal act if I talk about my daughter. You have no idea what's going on. These figures are made up. £100 million, £50 million, £20 million …How do you know if I even want any money? I'm one-and-a-half-million in debt in lawyer's fees. And that's as much as I can say or I go to jail for telling the truth. So I'm gagged at the moment because I'm not allowed to say a word while the media are fed this spin by a certain corner.
FP: Alright, but then again - and as I say, I only know it from the media, so what do I know - but one of the clauses in this divorce thing is that you want to be able to sell your story?
HM: It's rubbish! I could sell my story right now! I'm trying to protect Paul and our daughter. I am trying and I am being pushed to the edge. Eighteen months of abuse. Worse than murderers and pedophiles. 4400 abusive articles. Look what they're doing to the McCanns. The woman and the poor father have lost their daughter. What are we doing as a nation? What are we doing persecuting a woman that is devastated behind closed doors and trying to hold it together as I have for eighteen months. What did the paparazzi do to Diana? They chased her and they killed her. Never mind all these other stories. That is what we're doing as a nation, buying these newspapers. Every time you buy one of those you contribute to it. So force a change for responsible journalism. You know, Rupert Murdoch when he bought that newspaper is quoted as saying "I can't believe how easy it was to get in the British media. And I promise you I will always give you honest and straight-forward journalism." Nothing like it.
Oh, and the absolute worst two posters of the '70s were done for the "Last Waltz." And the Scorsese movie sucks too because it never showed anything beyond what was on stage. Bill Graham complained about it for the rest of his life.
K-M's "Blue Rose" (closing of Winterland) was strangely iconic, (and stood the test of time from a merch standpoint) in part because it was all coked out, a sign o' the times. Tuten's Black Zep had great promise, but wasn't quite "it". This Wings piece wasn't good then and still sucks today. Think of what could be done today with that background pattern. My 2 cents.
shadows on the ground are different . I see slight, very slight , degrees of variation . maybe they dropped a brush
Last series of big show posters isn't it ? last Waltz , Zep and the closing of winterland. this poster is way better then those
the problem with the design is what Seabury notes . . . the background pattern is the same throughout, therefore exasperating. K-M (and Tuten) got to the stage where they could crank out high class chrome lettering but didn't have the computer tech (unavailable then) to make the subtle alterations to each pattern piece which would have made the postere compelling. I looked at it then, and still look at now, as BORING. NOT their best work. And we all know it then.
One thing I noticed in this design is that the background chrome reflections are all identical, which is not realistic.The same thing most people would do with a computer.
When I first learned computer graphics, I noticed that all of the preset patterns and fills seemed to be designed by Deadheads inspired by Kelly/Mouse.
I remember it pretty much as Richard Linklater's "Dazed and Confused" portrayed it. The rock & roll devil-horns hand sign kinda sums up the 70's for me all by itself.
It may well have sucked in Tacoma, at least according to Art. Maybe that's why Mount St. Helens let out a big old fart at the end of it. I can tell you that neither Tacoma nor Austin were punk hub scenes of the universe back then, no matter how spectacular the locals may have thought they were.
the 70's where pretty sad. I had a good time though, as a teenager here in the 70' s as crappy musclecars and skunly weed where dirt cheap. But, clothes where uncomfortable, everyone was smelly and had a lot of zits.
strangely, we had one of the very first tv stations in the country and one of the very first to do color. walt disney even did the logo for it. no joke.
people assume that if a person doesn't live in nyc or la or sf, that they are backwards hicks making a living trapping furs and trading with the indians. it''s really just the opposite. you hipster twerps in major cities merely absorb and claim the stuff that us "backwards hicks" invent and make nice and safe and cool for you. just tha fax, jack,
you knew me? how did you know i was unhappy? amazing.
and yes, chroms IS cool. did you know that robert williams invented chrome lettering? i'll bet you never realized that a person had to actually INVENT such a thing.
In 1976 I had a sweet sweatshirt with Jimmie Walker's face that said DYNO-MITE! in big glittery letters and a Six Million Dollar Man lunchbox. I also had a "Movin' On" CB radio on my Huffy bike. Life was good.
It's apparent that sone of you have never experienced watching a movie with your parents at a drive-in movie theater (I saw Jaws in '76)...or better yet (in your teens) sneaking into the Rebel Drive-In in the trunk to watch porn, or getting some stinkfinger in the back seat. Good Times vans with the bubble windows were hot. AMC Pacers were not. Dorothy Hamill and Lindsay Wagner were hot. Billie Jean King was not. Liberace, Sammy Davis Junior, Paul Lynde and Charles Nelson Reilly were obviously gay, but nobody ever talked about it. Rod Stewart allegedly had his stomach pumped. Wolfman Jack and Don Kirschner kept me up at night watching KISS, AC/DC and Cheap Trick footage. Silly Putty was fun. The Fonz, Schlitz, Falstaff, Boone's Farm. Roddy McDowell played basically everybody in the Planet of the Apes movies. Andre the motherfucking Giant. Really bad haircuts. Polyester. Four on the floor. Foghat. Pinball fucking RULED (and still does), thanks in part to The Who (who were blowing up hotel rooms and driving cars into swimming pools). Led Zep fucked a groupie with a fish. Nugent shocked the moral majority by talking about "that Nashville Pussy". Speed was ugly yellow and made in a bathtub. Mediochre pot was smuggled into Texas up someone's asshole. I smoked hash in my high school darkroom, then moved the ceiling tiles and blew the smoke up into the ceiling. "Who wears short shorts?" Twoallbeefpattiespecialsaucelettucecheesepicklesonionsonasesameseedbun. Aerosmith was actually good...and on heroin. So was the Green Arrow's nephew. Gwen Stacy died. Elvis died. Meanwhile, Evel Knievel somehow didn't. Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots. G.I. Joe. Atari's Pong on the TV was a technological breakthrough. SuperFriends, the Bugs Bunny/Road Runner Hour and Hong Kong Phooey helped make Saturday mornings fun in a way that kids today will never know. Captain Kangaroo, Mr. Greenjeans and the Dancing fucking Bear. The Chipmunks were on the radio at Christmas time, as were dogs barking out Jingle Bells. The Monkees had their own show and released cardboard cut-out 45's on the backs of cereal boxes. The Six Million Dollar Man fought Bigfoot (played by Andre the Giant) in a two-part special. Sanford and Son, Good Times and The Jeffersons spearheaded a network attempt at more black television, while Archie Bunker masked underlying sentiment in sarcasm and jokes that white people laughed at. Shaft, Superfly and Blacula did the same on the big screen. DYNOMITE!! You could play records backward and hear the actual voice of Satan...or maybe it was Linda Blair. Truck drivers took little white pills with white crosses on them while listening to "Convoy". Merle Haggard, Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, George Jones and Tammy Wynette dominated my mother's stereo. Queen, Aerosmith, KISS and The Ramones dominated mine. My asshole stepfather, who had spent three tours in Vietnam, constantly yelled at me to "Turn down that goddamn nigger music!"(?). I had posters on my walls from top to bottom, then I started putting them on the ceiling. I joined the KISS Army and tried to imagine what country I would escape to should the real one come calling. There were no mini-blinds, only big-ass thick ones. All the women wanted a piece of Rock Hudson. All the guys wanted a piece of Raquel Welch. Burt Reynolds posed naked in Playgirl and the women in my mother's beauty salon laughed at how small his dick was. I never heard them talk about John Holmes. Debbie did Dallas, but any girl in high school that had sex was a slut. Most guys thought Farrah was hotter. I voted for Jaclyn Smith. Nobody ever picked Kate Jackson. John MacEnroe was an asshole then as he is today. Tom Landry gave the Cowboys class and dignity (even though I hated them). The Oilers got our hopes up, and then sucked as usual...but Billy White Shoes Johnson could dance. So could John Travolta, and Michael Jackson, who was still black back then. UFO's were a hot topic, and UFO the band was big in the UK. The Scorpions had Uli Jon Roth. AC/DC had Bon Scott. Wayne County had testicles. Roger Dean was killing it. Frank Frazetta killed it harder. Art Chantry was unhappy.
And for some reason, people thought drawing chrome was cool.
I think one's opion of the 70's is directly affected by their zip code.
My Mama's from North Carolina and there are still places down dirt roads that are 50 years out-of-step with the rest of the country.
Having grown up in the 70's Bronx, even the bad times seemed like fun.
I recently tried to get nostalic with a neighbor (who is only several years older) and she, like Mr. Chantry, was aghast at my fondness for the decade - particularly '77.
She was a fearful teenager in Queens during the "Son of Sam" shootings, so her experience was different.
"What are ya gonna do?"
I would think electronic has had the most recent impact...I mean its utilized in all types of music now, most Pop music is made electronically, so is rap, and just flat out electronic music. There is even electronic elements in some country. So there is noooo way Punk was the last style of music to make an impact on our culture.
To say Punk was the last style of music to make any impact on our culture aside from Grunge is a narrow view. Maybe in Popular Culture but, not overall. And who gives a shit about popular culture music anyway? Most of us around here could never deal with that shit to begin with.
To say punk is dead is also narrow. To say that only first gen punk matters is ridiculous. Totally.
You old dudes are actually making me feel young. Thanks!! And for once you have forced me to agree with Hobbs. Dudes! Stop!
"i see real big parallels to the current cultural moment."
that should make sense, because the past 20 years have basically been built on the 70s. fashion, music...we keep rehashing it culturally, so of course you'd find the parallels. indicates how importnat it was, like it or not.
I was high on pop rocks and coke and buying KISS comics, and finding out Elvis died while I was buying candy at the corner drug, runnung home to tell my mom...who yelled at me and threatened to ground me because she thought I was lying...also I was thin then.
The 70's ruled.
if you liked the 70's, you were either coked out or snorting pcp (or perhaps you were smoking skunkweed laced with pcp). certainly, you weren' really there. no way. it was an extremely dismal time full of the worst sort of posing as ritualized culture. money is all that mattered and nobody had any of it.
sort of like today. i see real big parallels to the current cultural moment.
i can also see the big change starting, too. learn to surf it.
Y'all are insane, the 70's ruled. We had Trans Ams with 6.6 liter engines and a big ass bird decal on the hood, no AIDS, comics were great, arena rock concerts in stadiums with a cloud of pot smoke, AOR radio, hairy vaginas, wall-size KISS posters, 12"x12" album cover art, Saturday Night Fever, Warriors, Steve McQueen, Charles Bronson and Bruce muthafuckin' Lee. Guys over 18 worried about being drafted. We had Nixon, Jack Kirby, Johnny Wadd and Linda Lovelace. Jensen Triaxials in the back and CCR playing on the eight track. VHS. Beta. Dr. Pepper at 10, 2 and 4 O'Clock. Zotz candy with its acid-filled center. White guys with afros. Tube socks with shorts. Jack Lambert, Billy Beer and Farrah Fawcett. The Toxic Twins. The Glimmer Twins. The Wrigley's Spearmint Gum twins. French Ticklers. Spanish Fly. Volkswagen's The Thing. Walter Cronkite. Johnny Carson. Digital watches. $10 for a lid. Uppers, downers, reds, blues. Mood rings. Punk. Disco. Bowl cuts. Bell bottoms. Baseball sleeved concert T's. Concert tickets with glitter lettering. Iron-on transfers. Prism dashboards. Honeycomb wheels. Cragar mags. Starsky & Hutch. Smoking on airplanes. Preacher's daughters. Crying Indians. Phones with cords. Roger Staubach. Earl Campbell. The Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders. Charlie's Angels. HR Puf'nstuf. Star Wars. Cheech & Chong. Pete Rose. Richard Pryor. Led Zeppelin. Black Sabbath.
I guess while I was making out with Anita Cock under the bleachers, some of y'all were sitting around wondering when life was gonna get fun. You shoulda got out more.
My memories of the suckin' 70's are a hazy swirling montage of dark wood, "kolonial" furniture, orange and avacado green, depressingly boxy land-yacht cars, shrill singers trying to be Robert Pant over chugga-chugga guitars, noodling keyboard solos, mellow California coke music, rich hippies trying to stay relevant, and horrible, horrible wide-leg pants.
But at least the porn was better.
I practically threw everything I owned away the first time I heard the Clash.
yeah, i think it was unintentional, too. it was obviously the last roar of a dinosaur band using a dinosaur stylist from a dinosaur art movement. both the band and the poster artists staggered a long for another couple of years and fell over flat on their faces and vanished for years and years.
now, we all think the 70's was so cool. boy, i was there and it was really really not a cool time at all. honest. just look at this poster. this WAS cool then. get it?
the seventies really sucked bigtime. even early punk sucked. man that decade just sucked (sorry i'm getting so emotional about it). IT SUCKED!
another couple of things about this poster. the aircraft is the infamous "flying wing" from the fifties. it was designed to drop atomic bombs. it was so difficult to handle that it made it through a couple of test flys and was scrapped. it cost more than any airplane ever up until that point. sorta like the band 'wings'. get it? dinosaurs flying boondoggles into the sunset, all shiny and beautiful and useless.
maybe unintentional, but a perfect metaphor for a bloated dying era.
perkins - that's amazing footage. i hope they showed the next step - where pete called into the audience for a drummer and they finished the set with some guy from the audience playing the drums. classic.
did they also show that amazing isle of white concert where pete and keith start playing a little game of one-up-man-ship against each other and dumfounded everybody (include themselves?) that is so impressive it brings tears to the eyes of the most jaded amongst us.
i think zach is getting older and growing up. isn't that cute? here, he's actually trying to develope an historical context by reading silly little books written by somebody else he's never met. then, he's trying to tie in what he's read with what he's experienced and what he sees. our little boy is becomeing a man! it brings a tear to my eye...
Tuten had the least influence on the piece, Kelley the most.
At the time, many of us who had followed Kelley's and Mouse's career with great interest felt they (in particular Kelley) were relying on the chrome thing much too much, particularly in their letterforms. So this poster, when it was first issued, was disappointing to a lot of folks who expected more than "easy bold." Just sayin'.
To answer Zach- I think it changed things AND made life less boring. It created a brand new subculture that basically gave in to its primal impulses in reacting to life as it was at that time- something that simply can't be duplicated 30 years later. It's freshness was partly what defined it.
when this poster hit the walls (head shops and record shops) it was a breathe of fresh air in a stagnent corporate image filled world of total crap - very similar is feel to the way things stand right now. punk came along and erased all of that like a firestorm. all of a sudden this band and this style was gone - over - kaput. it's only recently that we even notice this poster ever existed at all. it was 30 long years ago.
but, it's a fine chromium blowout overkill thing. kelly/mouse MUST have thought the chrome was a great remark about the bright shiney phoniness of wings. and the style is exactly the style of the monster shirt company that they had at the time. it was a perfet reflection of m/k and wings and the state of rock at the moment. a sort of over-the-top death knoll comment. after this it was over (like m/k and wings and that arena rock).
it's a much better poster than popularly observed. you dig and you compare and you think and you dicover.
classic stuff. it's as shallow and empty beauty and style is a perfect match for most of the empty beautiful posters on this sight. but, we think otherwise. wait thirty years and look again.
I believe that there are many people both young and old that totally do not fit into what is considered "normal" that find each other and somehow create their own culture of sorts... It probably doesn't exist quite like decades past, but yeah, weirdos still find each other. Aside from some great records, most of those 70's punkers (especially the brits) were full of shit anyway. I've spent way too much time reading history books on "punk". I think I read "Please Kill Me" 3 or 4 times cover to cover. I'm much more into how the American hardcore scene manifested and had (little but still significant) staying power. That shit STILL doesn't get used for television commercials. hence it is still relevant. Huh....?
I wasn't moved then by the poster, and still am not today.
the flying wing is cool but the repetitive background thing aggravates me for some reason. maybe I don't like it because K-M was starting to get commissions from Journey, a band I truly detested.
Zach, I can understand where Art's coming from on this one. I was in my teens when the "original" punk movement happened in the mid to late 70's. There actually was a reason for its existence back then. It had everything to do with hating bands like Styx and disco music, and rebelling against the fact that the only music radio (at the time a band's best means of exposure) would play was disco, cheesey arena rock and rated G whitebread music like Abba. It also had to do with post-Vietnam sentiment and the recent impeachment (and subsequent pardon) of a President. Then it was pure and real- and whether or not it was good (or HOW good it was) sometimes depended on the angry thought that drove it and if kids could identify with it.
I think punk's impact on music and even on human rebellious behavior is obviously still felt today...but it's not punk...at least not in the sense of how I define it.
ya know, we gotta keep a little historical perspective around here. for a lot of people, this is all being done right now for the first tiem. so, a lot of folks really don't understand the difference between the contexts the older posters were existing in. most people working today can't even think of punk as not always having been there, ya know?
the differences between old posters and today's posters are much much wider than merely the look, the band and the artist. they're from differnet cultures as well. they existed in totally foreign worlds.
classic. i remember this poster hanging in record shops in the mid 70's and being awed by it. chrome madness!
sure, wings sucked. but back then, they were actually considered good because everything else sucked even worse. christ, they were even considered heavier than the stones or the who at this point, beacuse even those bands had gone dead in the popular waters of mid 70's tripe. thank god punk came along when it did and cleaned out our sinuses so thoroughly. we'd still think wings was good.