I still love this thing. I saw Alejandro at the Muddy Rivers Music Festival here in Winnipeg tonight. R.L. Burnside was supposed to be playin' but he's been ill so his grandson Cedric and Kenny Brown played for the people earlier than scheduled. Alejandro and crew became the headliners and I'm glad I stuck around. Great show.
i just noticed all of this, and here are my comments:
Some of us designer/art school prissy types are very used to being critiqued, and appreciate it because it helps us to see things in our work that we probably would not have noticed right away had someone else not caught it. So, needless to say, we are used to being open and honest with our opinions of other peoples work, however, i for one, try to do it in a constructive manner. now, to some people who arent used to getting their work ripped to shreds by other artists, this kind of thing may seem offensive and insulting. just know, that in probably 99.9% of the cases when it seems like your work is getting "slagged" by a designer with his "art-school mumbojumbo," he is likely just offering some solid advice.
before submitting my recent poster here, i contacted AA, Methane, and local guy Brian Hurley (Twelve) and ASKED for them to rip apart my work before submitting it to a printer. We are just used to it, so used to it that we need it.
My name is Dan, I am half of AA and I am a chronic "art school mumbo jumbo" type. ("hi dan.") Although, strangely I only have a local tech school education.
It's difficult for me to defend "conceptual" work vs. "cool(?)" work because it IS all subjective but I can at least try and explain why I choose to work the way I do. Note: I can only speak for myself. To me, working conceptually is like some horrible drug. I have to understand what I am doing and why or else I think I've failed. I love making it conceptually "perfect" in my mind and sometimes I spiral down paths that I admit, may or may not catch the eye of the passerby as well as some other imagery. But for me doing this poster work is is all about the musician. I am always trying to make work that I think reflects what that person is about musically or artistically or whatever. For me, most of the poster work we do is for artists that may not be known by the general public so I think it's important to create a poster that somehow gives off the "vibe" (sorry, vibranium) of that artist because there may be people that come to that show that don't know who the artist is. When you get right down to it, isn't that really what a poster SHOULD be? It's promotion for a show and it's sole purpose is to get people to it that wouldn't come anyway because if they we're going to come anwyay then we wouldn't need any fucking posters then would we? Okay, now I'm rambling, sorry.
Basically, I think the only real arguement one can make is: does this poster reflect what the artist is about and if you didn't have the faintest idea who this person was and went to the show would it be the show you expected to see after seeing the poster? Jesus, that was a long sentence.
lure you are correct and nolen..
i shouldnt bitch and say move on.. this board is for discussion.. great point, u dont like it turn to another channel.. or here another poster :)
i get my panties in a bunch when i see some comments and am like "man let it go" and i feel that way..
but you are right... you should be able to discuss something with others without being slammed..
im am guilty of being shortempered with some postings that are ticky tacky (in my eyes)..
my apologies, and keep the debates and dialoge open, if it helps then its worth it!
I really like this piece just for the risk that was taken. The tattering, the highly original name of mapping and placing the artist's name, and the whole victorian meets deconstructivism is just plain cool, plus the harmonic colors. And I don't hate on vibe for not digging. Different strokes. I dig where he is coming from too.
i think nolen hit it here. some of us do like to debate the ideas behind certain peices or the details that make them work or just why we do or don't like them. i find that interesting. if you don't like the debate, then just stay out of it. no offense intended. but it's like watching a tv show you don't like, turn it off. we'll still be in that thread debating away! some of us like it. i think i learn something from it. as long as we show each other respect, it's healthy.
but, i do hate that vibe. he's such a fuck. ;)
but the apparatus smokes.
Why does everyone hate Vibe? He makes good points...he brings in a perspective different from a lot of the other people on here (which I really appreciate). I've never read him write anything eletist at all.
To say it's all subjective and at the end of the day some people like it and some people won't so don't comment on it is just plain ridiculous. If that was how it should be, these comment boards wouldn't be here in the first place. If it was all subjective and it didn't even matter then why should anyone comment here? Why should people who just go: "rockin!" write anymore than people who write a paragraph on what they like/don't like?
We should comment because it helps us get to see other perspectives and it's a chance to talk with other people who work in the same genre. It's a learning experience for the creator of the piece and the commentator when the creator or someone else responds.
Just because some of us went to art school does not automatically make us snobs in attitude or because we use terminology we've learned (personally I kept away from those kids in school). You use what you know in a discussion, Vibe uses what he knows, I use what I know, etc. etc. We all have different perspectives which is part of what's good about this site. If you can't handle other people's commenting, then why read these comment boards?
And I don't think a lot of what people comment on on these boards is "taste DEFENDED by art school talk" or whatever was written. It's taste explained by technical terminology. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone says "Dude I loooove this poster coz beat up looking stuff that looks like it was made in the 1800's is soooo awesome" is that any more valid than if someone used "Art school mumbo jumbo like "I really like the use of authentic found type and the way they juxtaposed such a deteriorated image against such a clean, white perfect shaped paper. The Vicotorian age advertising type of lettering goes well with the ornate image, but I wonder why they made the background green darker than the color of the type? It makes it harder to read and kind of awkward, but overall I think it works...I was just curious about that, since type is usually darker than surface then the two are so similar in tone." ????
That "art school speak" part was paraphrased from what a friend of mine thought about this.
And Vibe is right, when someone says somethign is "good" or "bad" it should be assumed that they mean of course "good to me/bad to me". I don't think Vibe or most people on here have the ego to claim to be the gods who know it all about this stuff. We're all still learning and I like these boards for all the wide views to hear and learn from.
>>>Learn good from bad. There are bad wines, cheap wines, cranked out wines, factory processed wines, etc...Accept the truth about it - whatever.
this is what i said. each one of us is ALLOWED to like and dislike. to set PERSONAL standards about good and BAD for themselves.
>>Its enought to just like what you like and accept that others will like things different.<< this is what Tornado said.
someone, show me anything i've ever said on this site that is directly contrary to this thought.
then i can apologize, cuz it certainly isn't what i believe.
jeez. if i write something here i'm giving my opinion!
your not even reading what i said. i never EVER said i dictate whats bad or good for anyone other than me.
YES I AM the authority on what i think is bad. FOR ME. if i say i DONT LIKE IT it's bad. or if i say I like it but i THINK ITS bad. TO ME!!! ALL DAY. I have the objectivity to say what i like and don't like. i don't pretend to buy into the it's ALLL GOOOOOOD. some shit stinks. TO ME!!!
by posting stuff on this site you open yourself up to critique positive and negative. AND i always ventured an opinion followed by constructive reasoning.
No rb, you arent the only one. Its not about 'being the underdog': maybe thats the problem. Id like to think that most of us aren't really looking at this board as a 'competition'. Its enought to just like what you like and accept that others will like things different. It becomes an assault when someone tries to equate a certain art style with 'intelligence' or 'depth'...and without saying it openly, thats what you do Vibe. Whether you agree or not, whether you mean to or not...thats how it comes off sometimes...and several folks will tell you that. If you see yourself as some sort of bleeding heart shower-of-the-way to those 'lost' on this site, Id forget that. Its only going to irritate others.
Thats just my opinion. ALL art is valuable. Who is anyone to say that a personas form of expression is 'bad' or 'wrong'? Im sorry...you lost me there, dude.
Damnit, Vibe...you just dont get it...And I guess Im stupid for thinking that I might shine a light for you cuz youve been told this by everyone on here in every way possible. You say that someone can 'like something bad'. YOU are not the authority on whats 'bad'. 'Bad' is a HUGELY subjective word. Am I the only one that is completely at a loss as to why this guy doesnt get that simple concept? Whats bad to you may be good to me. Simple.
rb, i really like this site, and these discussions but i think it's much more polite to keep the comments limited to the posters. i'm just speaking my piece...
i don't want to change anyones aesthetics. i kinda like being the underdog - the outsider.
i just think you can like something bad, that's all. i like the monkees, i can listen to the music. but were they good musicians? i can accept that.
Vibe, man...youre becoming irritating. Man, you wanna argue about everything. Everyone aint gonna like what you like. Its a matter of taste...PERIOD. No amount of art scool mechanical talk is going to convince ANYONE to like something they just DONT. Calm down, bro.
the fact that this came off as 'marbled' to someone shows that there does need to be some 'art school' conversations about design. design isn't purely fine art. it isn't purely subjective. Posters and event posters belong to the realm of graphic design - how can anyone deny this? fine arts emerged from graphic/commercial/patronized art. the camera freed art up to be 'fine' but these babies do one thing fine art isn't supposed to do. SELL SOMETHING!
(An attempt at an analogy) if you decide to enjoy wine. fine go off and drink a bottle. but if you want to be an expert, a true conniseur a collector- then you have to DISCUSS it. LEARN about - go to school for it. read about it and CRITIQUE it. Learn good from bad. There are bad wines, cheap wines, cranked out wines, factory processed wines, etc...Accept the truth about it - whatever.
is the analogy working, am i making sense?
Remember you can LIKE BAD DESIGN or NOT like GOOD DESIGN. And critiquing in the long run is much more helpful then stroking.
yes, yes, yes, in the end it's all subjective. but i like those "tired" debates on what makes a piece work. that's subjective, too, eh? and it's funny because even getting into little details of what works and doesn't becomes subjective!
it's all subjective! that's what makes art so fucking interesting.
thanks for the discussion.
1)you're right, no one needs to go to art school to take a liking to a piece of communication art. it's a visceral response.
2) i feel no need to defend my tastes. good or bad, they are my own.
3) i don't think i used any "art school theory" here. but having knowlege of those theories, ideas and background help us discuss what makes pieces work or not work.
3) a bit of that "art school theory" is used in every successful piece of art work, no matter how you came about learning it; in or out of art school. and part of my point is that you don't have to go to art school to get it. sometimes that makes for the freshest work.
sorry, as a designer and someone who went to art school and "studied" design, i like the art school "mumbo jumbo." especially when it comes from those who've picked it up on their own; from a differnt point of view. THAT'S what i like about these boards. that's when i learn things.
yea it can be subjective but that doesnt mean we cant say what we think,thats the whole point.i agree that this poster looks cool,its easy on the eye however it doesnt rock,i think lure meant the apparatus rock in general,not necessarily this poster
for the most part, yes, it's just personal taste. i have my own criteria for "judging" the work. some share my criteria, some don't. and i don't really believe that i'm right and anyone else who disagrees with me is wrong.
and when did i rip apart any detail? i just said how much i liked this poster. i don't really want to slag anyone on this site. there's work here that i think completely sucks, but i'm not gonna go on about it. there's work here that i think is great, but not my taste, i'm not gonna go on about that either. but sharing thoughts, ideas, and points of view about the work is facinating to me.
actually, it wasn't me who talked about hand-drawn type. although, i like hand drawn type and i'm constantly amazed at how well some people on this site do it.
it doesn't bother me in the slightest that the art was lifted. the amount of effort put into the exectution isn't all it's about.
in this case, i don't know the band at all, so i don't know if it fits them conceptually. i'll assume it does in some way, because these guys are conceptual thinkers (there i go again making assumption, mistriss :). the image isn't "marbelized." i think it's just torn and crumpled paper that's been scanned (correct me if i'm wrong, apparatus). it's no photoshop filter. the design is just so simple and strong. if you saw this posted with 30 other of these busy, cluttered gig posters you see so much of, it would surely stand out.
all in all this poster and the rest of their work just fit MY asthetic.