my fav quote of the whole thread...
ps. jim is more than a borderline "tard" i forgot about this!!
"his stuff is the worst shit.
bad concepts, shitty drawings, worse type and this one seems pretty racist ta boot.
is this guy like borderline tard or something?
cuz that's the speculation among the spring chickens of gp........"
that's because american corporate pirates have been robbing canada blind for generations. you should see what we pay for their copper ore - hell, they're practically paying us to take it. and it's the best in the world, too.
tip of an economic iceberg, lotsa ships are sinking out there because we be piggies.
Thank yer lucky stars yer not in Winnipeg! We get next to nothing out here, and it drives me CRAZY! I'm STILL kicking myself for missing The Gossip. Most bands seem do the usual thing: Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver. Then maybe throw Calgary a bone or two. At least that's how it seems to me. I'd kill for some of the shows you guys get! The day the Blues Explosion decides to play here again(they did in '92, before I was a fan), there ain't a muhfucker alive that'll keep me from that show.
my attitude has been "fuck 'em" if they don't want free work. but that leaves me with no posters which sucks. nothing's worse than doing work and giving it to someone who doesn't give a shit or see the value in it.
exactly. and there's not much space to hang shit. trust me, it blows here. that's why i've moved away three times. but for some reason i keep coming back. but yeah, people here have their defenses up 24/7.
rich that's what i was warned...
most places in canada are the same way.. like in smaller cities they get REALLY suspicious don't understand at ALL why you'd wanna do something.
they never even HEARD of poster art at alot of places we called..
an average , decent house downtown goes for about 80-130 gs here and at our place my share of the rent is 250..
that's to live in a pretty decent place right off the water. 2000 square feet.
i could crank out what those in house dudes do in like an hour a week.
then do my own shit.
Find gigs outside of Canada. It's really not very difficult. I'm a total lazy loser and I am getting tons of work. Use your connections on this site. Ask nicely and watch how many people will extend a hand to you.
well 30 gs is about normal working class or start up salary. most of the inhouse guys aren't very ambitious, NONE of them sell thier stuff, it's all split fountaint one pull prints on cheap paper with "art" they spent 20 minutes on..
i guess it's a diffent situation in canada- very FEW bands tour here, the same promotions company books cross country and are VERY clannish.
most of the bands i like never come here, at least not the smaller ones. and when the big ones do there is no chance in hell cause the main promotions places and clubs are have 4th rate inhose guys
luckily we are becoming in house guys our selves,
it's REALLY cut throat and kinda sucks but u gotta do what you gotta do.
is sucks ass cause almost NONE of the bands i like EVER play here, unless they are canadian.
they old guys gaurd thier turff with their lives.
i'm not joking, they go around and rip down our posters and threaten us on msg boards.
they don't give a fucjk about the music, just the 30 gs a year they get for turning on thier 'puters.
frank - i wasn't bitching. i was sharing the story of a strange place in a galaxy far away. it had a lot to do with the conversation. i wanted to point out that 'turf' is a very complicated concept, especially if it involves survival. that's about all. if i can't share my history on this site, i ain't got much to say.
damn, i just wrote this beautiful ramble that explained everything in the universe, and the computer seems to have cut it off after one sentence. well, it's your loss. bummer. now to go conquer the world with 'a vengence'
frank, i was thinking dicaprio - he makes a great tard.
"I know in our case we were ALOT easier than some past Austin artist (JAustin in particular) for some clubs to deal with. We were not drunk, we bathed, we did work on time, we had a phone, and we did not bring an ass load of ego and attitude that brought the aformentioned issues as baggage. People will change artists if you give them any reason to. That is where relationships, quality, and responsiblility - along with hard work - will bring opportunities away from those who are slipping up. It happens.If you are not professional and friendly you can't expect someone to keep you as an artist for the sake of keeping you as an artist...its just not smart business in any field."
Acting like a professional is the key... you are correct, Plastk.
whatever i do now is gravy. i was talking about a particularly ugly part of my past. if i want a press, i'll set one up. but i don't want to - i burned out on printing my own stuff back in the 70's. and yeah, i'm working angles right now to do cool work - incuding posters for clubs. so, i'm not dead, pal. i'm just having to start over. finances are tight (so's everybody), so i get kinda snitty about being broke, but that'll change - it always does.
so, quit trying to kick-start me, frank. i've been doing this along long time, and i intend to do it until i drop. made up my mind to do that before you were probably born.
I bet that if you called drowning Creek right now theyd shit for joy to like publisk you for ever.
you do the designs
they fund the prints
they sell them ot you do you split the proceeds.
your shit SELLS on ebay.
get crackin. turn off Buffy.
actually that's not what i'm saying. if i got pissy everytime someone copied my style, well, it's be kinda stupid, wouldn't it. i'm talking about a level of competition for a very small piece of pie. the competition was with me (because i set the standard) and everybody wanted to do cool posters, too. so, who do you compete with? with the guy in front, of course. it's the nature of the beast.
what i drove me out of seattle was simply an inability to compete with a what had become a ltage mob of designers, cartoonists, hipsters who went after any client i touched and tried to take it away. the seattle market was so spoiled by the competition for their 'wares' that they benefitted heavily, and i (as the guy who's look was the one to follow) became trompled by a ton of feverish copycats. and my complaint that many didn't use a lot of integrity is totally fair, many were shitty human beings out for a quick buck and instant fame and notoriety. and they succeeded quite nicely. all the guys like me in seattle had to leave. all the scumbags rose to the top and made a buttload. that's what made america great, ok?
doesn't mean i like it or want to live that way ever again. i have my limits and i'm damn tired of fighting for survival. that's all, frank.
sorry man. like it did not take a lot of effort to set up a press and do all of that. I was motivated. It was fun and exciting. I mean it was pretty obvious how I did it. you could do the same thing right now. Shit dude, I was always jealous of all your estrus stuff. do I like complain about it? no.
I love it.
I guess that being from like a 'blue collar' background I was not scared to like start up on my own.
I mean, no one needs our posters at all. It's up to YOU to like pimp your shit.
Thats like the basic idea about
dude your a mercenary.
i did, constantly. how do you think all those clubs starting doing posters in the first place? clubs in other cities wouldn't pay for printing or shipping and wanted them for free (like you do), so they all said 'no'. they all wanted kozik or coop anyway. they never heard of me.
in seattle, the clubs were all spoiled and the promoteres always got everything for free (again, because they knew they could get them free from KOZIK, why should they pay me?) and it was always a hassle getting affordable printing (thank god for brian at BLT. he single-handedly supported everybody it seems). so, the club wouldn't pay for the design, and only begrudgingly paid for printing. that's why most of my posters are two-color - that's what i could afford.
and the promoters had a line at the door of young hipsters wanting to do posters for their favorite bands. i seldom did posters for the big cool shows, because other guys would be so eager to do the poster they would do anything to do it - i even knew guys who paid the promoter to let them do the whole poster for free. or, they would contact a big time dude like kozik to do it (or somebody else). it was really nasty. and it's what i was stuck with. unfair competitors just made it worse.
I know in our case we were ALOT easier than some past Austin artist (JAustin in particular) for some clubs to deal with. We were not drunk, we bathed, we did work on time, we had a phone, and we did not bring an ass load of ego and attitude that brought the aformentioned issues as baggage. People will change artists if you give them any reason to. That is where relationships, quality, and responsiblility - along with hard work - will bring opportunities away from those who are slipping up. It happens.If you are not professional and friendly you can't expect someone to keep you as an artist for the sake of keeping you as an artist...its just not smart business in any field.
I guess I should have clarified that a bit... I agree that the way you have experienced that is a bit unethical and must have been extremely frustrating. I suppose it's almost the same thing, but I have the 2 separated in my mind as corporate paying jobs being slightly different than doing the freebie club fliers.... maybe I shouldn't be looking at them as different... hmmmm....
What I meant for that to out like was this: If you can't get a gig at a local venue to do posters, start looking regionally or nationally... there are lots of clubs who would like posters/fliers done for them and surely anyone who's willing to do the groundwork can find a place to do posters for without stepping on anybody else's toes.
maybe YOU were, frank, but i wasn't. i lived in seattle, an overpopluated island menatlity and had to survive only on what i could find locally. you've always gone outside because you had a great established system for doing so, even your own printing. it's an extremely different experience for you, and to dismiss what i said on that basis is kinda kneejerk and not very insightful, even lame. to say i could have gotten work anywhere is just not true. i tried - ny, la, sf, everywhere - repeatedly and constantly. i was a real aggressive go-getter. i lived in seattle and i depended on my local community for support. but it was EXTREMELY competetive, and those who rose to the top competed the most effectively, not necessarily the most honestly.
undersatnd? i'm sure it happens everywhere, but it was very nasty up there for me. it really killed me.
i'd like to weigh in on the 'turf' thing. i know that on these threads it's looked like i was whining about 'turf' battles and all, but i'd like to explain what i meant. i really do think there is a line that gets crossed when a 'competitor' literealy imitates your style and goes after your established clientele. i had this happen many many times from several fronts when i was in seattle, and it really killed my income - one outfit went after my clientele exclusively and wrestled away over 75% of my work. others, imitated whatever poster i put out so closely, that i got accused of copying his style by my own clients. this sort of thing happened to me time and time again, and it was my 'friends' and 'students' and 'co-workers' doing it to me, people i had befriended and even trained. i had to stay one-step ahead, because i knew a client was only good for about three projects and then a competitor would take away the client. i was so broke during most of time in seattle that it wound up being the biggest reason i had to move to st. louis. i literally was put out of business by my own little frankenstein monsters and forced out of the market. for the last 2 or 3 years up there i got no work at all from seattle. it was extremely tough, because i got very little work from outside seattle.
so, i'd like to point out that there is such a thing as unfair business practices and that i've seen it up close and first hand in seattle. i'm also not saying i was the only one who suffered this same problem - talk to hank trotter or frank zepponi. but i will say (with a touch of pride) that i was the biggest target. i guess i was doing SOMETHING right up there.
"I don't beleive in "turf" and anyone can do posters for shows anywhere. All I think is they should be working with one of the entities responsible for the show."
Hear, here! With as many shows as there are at any given time, no one should be at a loss for shows to do posters for. Buy a musicians resource guide and start sending samples to clubs. Make some phone calls. Visit them in person. Do anything but whine about why you can't get the gigs. The gigs are out there.
The word "you" is meant in the plural sense and not directed at any one in particular.
Captains, no beef with you guys. :-)
Here in Austin there are quite a few designers. Either I'm oblivious or there truly is no spiteful hard feelings or even competition for gigs. We all coexist just fine and we personally have no desire to put anyone out of a job. There's small money being made if any at all on this stuff. I don't beleive in "turf" and anyone can do posters for shows anywhere. All I think is they should be working with one of the entities responsible for the show.
All of the well-known artists in this field seem to have worked hard for it. All of the really well known ones like Kozik or Emek to Kleinsmith and Jermaine all seem to continually stay busy even after theyve got their attention. Some artists are always turning out work but never complaining. Thats probably the secret. :-D
first off jim is a nice guy, smart and not a racist.
also, captns and i have talked. the door has always been open.
i do not OWN the clubs. im not the street team. its odd. i have tons of artists all around the country contact me. if the GIG IS OPEN. its theirs. if you think that you are taking work from captns, GIVE THEM YOUR GIG AND DONT ASK TO DO SHOWS.
they are nice guys. the deal to give the club x amount of posters applies to them as it does to everyone else. i dont make the rules. the CLUBS are HAPPY, the artists who do the gigs either dig it or not. noone is forced. i have no problem if factor 27 or ewing or mike fisher etc does a poster. they ask, its theirs...
i have been open to ALL artists around the country. i dont make policy. and for ALOT of cities, its the same, give the club x amount of posters if you want to do the gig. they promote give to the band etc.. normal practices.
the same thing happens in los angeles and many other cities. and artists have proved you dont have to live in a city to do a poster.
jim altieri has never clogged up any shows, and does it just for fun. he just them to go to the show for free. no harm no foul.
anyway. im not going to fight about this. life is too short. noone forces anyone to do anything.
"Kevin, no one DESERVES anything. This whole idea that you have about that doesn't fly in the real world. You get the work by working hard and paying dues.... by making connections and being someone whom other people want to work with, not just because you did a couple of nice posters.
Nothing gets handed to anyone on a silver platter. If you think that's how some of us got the "breaks" we did, you are dead wrong."
This is 100% dead on. We have been bustin' our ass and going after promotors and clubs and bands for almost a year now and it's finally starting to pay off. We do good work we are on time and we have very clear communication to our clients. The last two have more to do with our success than being good. We can be the next Warhol or Kozik or whoever but if we sit on our ass and do two posters a year vs almost 100 which we are about hit nobody is going to know we exist.
When you are unknown you have to do the leg work. Nobody is going to just hand you the job because you have a couple of cool posters. You can be awesome but that doesn't mean you deserve anything.
Everyone needs to take it down a notch. Whether you like this guys work or not, I dont see what it has to do with The Captains of Industry. He isnt taking work away from us at all. Though possibly in the past we have questioned the practices of what goes on in philly, we realize now that the circumstances that we operate in are very unique. As far as philly shows go, if we wanted them we could get them, but as of yet we havent been in the financial situation to go for the bigger shows, especially since we can do smaller shows and be gaurenteed to make our money and a little profit. We are working closely now with the local guys (ie. the big bad philaarts) to get some bigger shows.
this is all
Likewise, I don't want people telling me I can't offend christians if I want to, so it doesn't seem right to claim Jim can't use this if he so chooses. I only question if this is truly how he wants to be represented.
Judging by all the posts about this poster, it obviously did what a gig poster is designed to do. End of story. Anything else is reserved for poster collectors (all 1500 of them) and the rest of planet Earth really doesn't care.
You're very right. That's what I mean - I'm very much against organized religion and do offensive iconography for the purpose of offending. I'm also not saying he shouldn't have done this, as it's really none of my business. I'm only saying if it were me, I wouldn't have chosen offensive imagery unless my intent was to offend the people the imagery was originally created to offend.
Hmm. It seems to me that the artist attempted to make the "pickininny" look somewhat like a white guy. There's definite additions (white hands, marks on face) that seem like a conscious attempt *not* to completely bring on the wrath of African Americans everywhere. If this is true then this poster is even more of a piss-take and even more of a watered-down attempt at "shock". Lame.
I can't say if it's right or wrong, because at the end of the day, it's still just my opinion, but personally I do offensive material when I want to offend someone and steer clear from it when I don't. I have no problem believing this wasn't done maliciously, but I also know people who would be offended, not simply because they're black, but because they're old folks who were around when this was done as a joke at someone's expense.
it's sad that what pm says is true.
i'm finding out the harsh way it has very littlke to do with talent or producing hight quality work and ALOT to do with having been around for ever.
but the old promoters are being pushed out by the young ones who hire us soooooo.
in a few years...
Kevin, no one DESERVES anything. This whole idea that you have about that doesn't fly in the real world. You get the work by working hard and paying dues.... by making connections and being someone whom other people want to work with, not just because you did a couple of nice posters.
Nothing gets handed to anyone on a silver platter. If you think that's how some of us got the "breaks" we did, you are dead wrong.
well i wish em luck cause here is mtl yannick and are up against some 40 year old guy with photo shop, a clip art book and no skills at all.
but as the promoters said "i went to hight school with him and he's been doing my posters for 25 years blah blah blah he's my pal "
no i get the "joke"
i still think it's in poor taste thought.
i also think the art stinks AND that's it's a HUGE shame that in the same city, the captains of industry, 2 of the best of the young crop, are desperatly trying to get more work and THIS guy gets it.
as for me not having a sense of humour, check out our last poster (http://www.gigposters.com/posters.php?poster=8342)
i have a sense of humour , and i am famailliar with the refrences he's throwing i just don't think he's powerfull enuff as an artist to pull it off.
Jim's a great guy and does some damn funny poster art. It pushes buttons. It gets reactions. that means he's doing something right.
The band loved the poster and thought it was hilarious. So who else's opinion matters?
Nashville Pussy sticks confederate flags on everything...but they are not racist, far from it, they just know it gets a rise out of the Political Correct types and they are all about pissing off the mainstream. . If you don't get the joke, check your sense of humor. You jumped far too quick on this one.
I'm sick of politcal correct bullshit mentality that has put a chokehold on people making a joke or having to worry what others will think. Chloe, You overanalyzed this poster even before you knew what was actually going on with the concept.
Lighten the hell up. It's punk rock poster.
Team Spring Chicken? What the hell is that?
This is exactly the kind of stuff I like. I can see why the people that "oh and ahh" over arty pictures of hub caps and kitchen utensils don't like it... but fuck them! This is the kind of stuff the catches my eye. Great poster keep up the good work.
I wasn't going to bring this back up, but since it's here, I'm going to elaborate on my curt statement last nite.
Chloe, you didn't "get" the joke and you went on a rampage castigating Altieri for everything he does including his art, concept, type and even called him a retard. No wonder you are depressed with all that venom you spew daily.
Going with a gut reaction is not always the right way to go about things. I didn't "get" the concept the first time I looked at this either, but I know Jim and he's a great guy, so I took the time to look at it again instead of immediately jumping on him for an imagined racial infraction.
Team spring chicken indeed. More like team hot head.
what is spring chicken? like a seceret club? seems there is room for everyone to do posters. why should this guy be put out of gigs? cause you dont like it? i dont know but art should be able to push buttons. as for an actual person-alitieri. if you dont know him, we shouldnt pass judgement. seems the people who know him say he is nice.
The types crappy, the colors are bad, the drawing isn't all that hot, but I still love it.
Ever consider that the concept is farther back than what you are lookin at?
This poster completely defies academic reasoning. That's why it's so threatening to some peple around here. You can not critique it cause it's all WRONG!
Now when does this thing start to become a powerful force? When someone attempts to critique it, that's when. That's what makes it funny for me. Jim's put out what's wrong with it in plain sight. EVERYTHING.
Punk as fuck.
My sentiments. I know Jim and hes a great guy, and I know he didnt mean anything racial by this...but Ill admit, when I first saw this months ago, dude, I was about to type a BLAST...then I noticed it more and was like..'Ohhh...okaaaay :-( '
Not an image Id do. TOO close.
I like Jims stuff in the same way that people like Herziks stuff. It has a freedom to it that I will never have the guts to attempt. Is he the best illustrator in the world? Nope, but Jim is simply the coolest guy ever. He is funny and actualy really inteligent and well written.
Chloe you should contact him and take the time to get to knoiw him a little. I think your opinion might change a little.
ya know, blackface humor was all the rage over much of the last century, but today you can't touch it. it's poison. i'd love to work with it, but it's like using the 'n'-word or making racist jokes. the problem is that it still allows people to create an area where it's still ok to ridicule others based on sterotypes that are associated with the most vicious type of repression. to turn it into a joke is simply not yet ok. it's just not funny, even as socio/political sarcasm.
so, as much as i'd love to take the balckface imagery and play with it, make it a joke, even use the iconography of oppression to usurp it's intrinsic power, i have to say i won't do it. it's the one spot i draw the line. i do all kinds of shock value in my work, but that's the one area i will not step because it's still too fresh and painful for a huge portion of our population.
oh, and auschwitz humor isn't funny either. that's the other one i won't touch.
this guy is NOT a parent of team spring chicken.
this is just some guy who's probably pals with a promoter..
i hope captains of industry start getting all the gigs he gets and FAST.
similar to the guys i'm putting out of biz inh mtl- no talent just a few friends from "back in the day"
whooo i don't feel depressed anymore.
I'm black and have no real problem with this. Jim knows I haven't always dug his stuff, but some of it actually makes me laugh. I'm not crazy about this one(the left arm of the girl seems out of proportion to me...but that's just me. I have yet to master human anatomy.), but I get the joke. The folks at MGM had the market cornered on violent gags. I love that shit!
don't flater yrself dude.
i only dig guys with brains.
i never commented on yr stuff before cuz i figured it was a lost cause. looks like i was right.
i hear community colleges everywhere offer design for beginers classes.
i just don't see this as being pulled off with any wit or inllegence at all.
nevermind artist skil..
sorry but the drawing is weak, the layout is weak.
everything about this is just fuckin' weak and shitty.
i was waiting for the attacks with this one. Actually it's a reaction to a being a kid growing up and seeing this stuff all the time. Bugs bunny, Tom & Jerry
cartoons all did this and as a kid I though nothing of it. Things are different today. Of course it is wrong and that is what I bring attention to. I did a "PC
version for the promoter so he wouldn't get castrated. As far as Seripop, oh well, you can't please them all. I am sure a lot of people hate my stuff. So fuckin what.
his stuff is the worst shit.
bad concepts, shitty drawings, worse type and this one seems pretty racist ta boot.
is this guy like borderline tard or something?
cuz that's the speculation among the spring chickens of gp........