i wrote that last stuff before you commented. so, it wasn't in response to you at all. we have no arguement. but, you'r view is a little too simplistic. there are distinct differences to these different printing PROCESSES, but, yes, they are ALL printing - aka - ink placed on paper. in that way, they are all apples. yes.
nest thing you know, you're going to say that letterpress is the same as offset is the same as ss, etc. i say there is a big difference. but it's still printing. hell, a potato srtamp is the same if you get THAT simple.
again - there is confusion. "spot color" work is also rather different from full bore 4-color process work. spot color is way closer to the way ss works.
seripop - the way you folks work with ss is always transparent. that's actually not typical. most people work with opaque inks (aka - inks that you can use to cover up the ink underneath). i always seem to have problems with requesting "transparent" inks from my ss printers and then they just thin down their inks that have a white base. it ends up creating a 'frosted' look to the overlapping ink. in other words, it's just a pisscoat of opaque ink. that's not a transparent ink.
most ss uses the opaque inks because you can get such beautiful rich delicious flat color from it. it's tough to do that quite as well with offset inks. colors are all built with four color process. it's almost impossible to get a really good orange with offset ink for instance. too much mixing and even the paper color leaks through and changes it.
spot color usually utilizes a pms match (a copyrighted ink matching system that emerged in the early 60's). pms ink colors have real problems, too. there's a whole lot that you can't do with them (the spectrums are peculiar. i once had the company explain how they actually were selected and it was extremely weird and arbitrary and lame.). but, the way the solid pigments look when it hits the paper is far richer than the 4-color build made with transparent process inks. also, pms colors are transparent, too, so you can mix them on the paper to create interesting (and sometimes unpredictable) colors as well.
class is over for now.
Art, I don't know what I won, but my point is that ink goes on paper. Thats it. Thats the entire concept behind printing just about anything.
Too many of these fucks let the technology dictate what they can and cannot do. Fucking Hobbs is bitching about the RIP that gets shit from the computer to the plate. And yet he's right there and already knows how to exploit the RIP, but for some reason he's not doing it. Its so fucking simple.
I solve problems. Thats my job description. I went and made a fuckload of money a couple weeks ago from some huge design firm because they couldn't solve problems. They were too smart to be dumb. Then I went and dealt with this hoity toity offset house and they were all like...but you can't do that and I was all like...why the fuck not? My answer was the best one available for the desired result, but it was outside convention and thus scary as fuck for everyone involved except myself.
Ink goes on paper. Plates, screens, flexo, letterpress...whatever the vehicle, ink goes on paper in a desired order at set opacities. Everything is controllable.
maybe i'm dumb but i find spot offset and sikscreening to be VERY similar , both in terms of preparing art and in terms of final results.
honestly i've never experience opaque silkscreen inks unless they had tons of white in them.
denny - we often work process colors as spots for our offset jobs. it seems to piss off alot of printers !
one last thing... i don't think this is a very good poster. it's basically a rip. too close for my tastes. and i did it myself.
like i said, i never thought these posters would have any lifespan outside of initial use as an ad/tour blank. the idea that it's being discussed here fifteen years after it was torn down off the telephone poles is charming.
oh, and yes, i DO know that you can use transparent inks on silkscreen - but why? those opaque colors are so wonderful! you can't do decent opacity with offset like that. the grit in the inks are too caorse to use on an offset press. that's why they use such runny transparent bases - it works on those fountains and chemistry with high speeds and accuracy while still wet (all colors go down at one time).
besides, try to do a run of 20,000 silkscreen posters using 4 transparent colors and keep the unit cost under two bits. offset is great.
this isn't a contest. silkscreen and offset are both worthy and wonderful. but, you have to admit, they ARE different, right? i'm just trying to help out those guys that are unfamiliar with the process that you can handle it if you just don't overthink it. in fact, once you master the intricasies of offset, you can do damn near anything with graphic design.
the same goes in reverse, you'd be surprised how many folks who do offset exclusively just have no idea how to do ss and are totally baffled by it. it just takes some doing and some familiarity.
richie, yes, you win. you're right (whatever your point is). but it's different, just the same. it's not apples and oranges, it's more like red delicious versus golden delicious. still apples, but different.
actually, it's not very much like screen printing at all. even though it's one color on paper at a time, that's about all the two mediums share.
i think rather than contrasting the two, jit's most important to remember that offset uses TRANSPARENT inks (that is, they don't use a white base like smost ss ink. it's clear and you can see through them like glass when they dry.) if you can just remember that one point, then setting up the artwork gets tremendously easier.
also, remeber that computers really seem to hate the idea of overlapping inks. that erases about 90% of what offset can do.
Zach, that's exactly how I do it, I usually begin in illustrator, import into photoshop, select by color range and make new spot channels, after that I convert to multichannel and delete the CMYK channels, letting only the spot color ones. The printer only has to print the separate channels, make one plate for any of them and run it with the spot color instead of the CMYK standard.
I have made the 2up stuff too, using the same color palette for two different bands, like the aframes and ghetto ways posters, great to see I'm not alone cutting corners.
You can see examples at my gigposters page (we call this autobombo in Spanish)
wow! great converstaion, here!
one problem i see here is that you computer/tech heads are working too hard. you think printing is what you guys do on your "magic box" and your desktop printer, etc. it's not that at all. it's a seperate technology that some geeks decided to design some software to vaguely duplicate. real printing is what we are faking with a computer (with prjected spectrums, no less) so, the result is you guys are constantly hitting a thumbtack with a hammer.
my suggestion: learn how to think bonehad, again. start from scratch with printing and go learn from your printer. they KNOW THEIR STUFF. honest. collaborate with them. when it comes to printing, they are the geniuses, and not you. all you need to do is simply remember that offset printing is just one transparent ink layered down one at a time. that's it. the primary spectrum of reflected light (cmyk) is your palette. all the rest is simple line art (including halftomnes - which are simple line art). overlap the shit out of everything to mix up your colors. that's all you need to know to do offset stuff.
and it's really not very much like silkscreening at all.
zach - most of the promo posters i did with record companies had to be made cheaply and in much larger quantities than is economically feasible to do silkscreen (like 3,000 copies of a CHEAPO poster to send out free to record stores and radio stations). sillkscreen becomes too dang expensive after you hit about 500 copies.
these tourblanks were real quick, very CHEAP promo/tour posters to help promote the band and the releases. we did them for a few years and i never really expected them to have an afterlifew like here on gp. they were all limited to THREE colors, and they had to be cmyk offset printing. so, like on this one it was printed in solid ymk (no c). it was cheaper for the printer to simply run it with only three of the primaries on a one-color press than to run it 4color on a 2-color or 4-color press.
to save even more money, they were printed two-up (two different posters for two different bands) on a single 18x24 (1/2 of a parent sheet) size and cut in two to double the size of the indivisual run. we also had a great printer who at the time gave us a great price becausee he was a friend (lance mercer at thingmaker) so, we exploited that system to get the whole thing done as cheap as possible. we did eveything imaginable to cut corners on expense at estrus. when you're broke, you can't solve problems by throwing money at it. you gotta use yer brains and your hands.
i set the colors up as overlays of line art (halftones are line art, to repeat myself). the one problem you have with working mechanicals and then scanning it in to your computer is that the registration between the scanned layers doesn't hold - it won't line up. again, geeks set this sytem up instead of graphic designers. (i know because my girlfriend was one of those geeks who helped set this system up back when it was being established at aldus. you should heare the stories about the battles over how to establish production technology for printing. in the end it was all built by people who really had no idea what real printing was. they faked it and re-named averything and missed a LOT of basics - like registering scanned mechanicals. i wish you could lock the percentage down from one scanned piece to the next. maybe i should talk to my crazy geek friends and see if they can set that programming up for me.
i still work in mechanical and scan it in as line art. no biggie, really. i can still do this poster on a computer with about 1/4 of a brain. think bonehad...
When i send a poster back there with alot of dots and texture shit it takes our rip an eternity to sep it and trap it. And that's my attempt to make things look oldschool. I haven't tried this but will someday I will create the job like seps for silkscreening, treating each color (C/M/Y/K) as spot colors, and send each color in a separate page, then have the plates made and run each color on top, without letting the RIP sep and trap the shit. My pressman will love me. Or I could try making the seps like Richie, but I'm not there yet. Just as an experiment...
Well, that's one way. Another is COMMUNICATE. You seriously have no idea how many people just assume things, especially in prepress situations. Lotsa shops are about volume printing so it's in and out, they don't care. Our shop is much smaller so you could actually talk to the person making plates about the process. It's like anything else, just tell someone what you want. But as for the ink density thing, you got so much computer shit in the printing process now, it's very precise... You can't do all the old school shit so much. Like, I'd love to run super low line screen, but we're running 175 to 200, or even stochastic which is like a random dot, you can't see a pattern in the dots. It's ridiculous...
I've done some projects where I had them printed offset (not posters mind you, but other stuff) and I got some issues from the printer about ink density etc, because I designed it as I would a 4-color print with all kinds of overprints etc. In some places I had all four colors overprinting at 100%. They didn't like that.
I've seen a bunch of Seripop's cd cases etc where they do similar things, how do you get around that?
For the record i have offset posters, silkscreens and xeroxes. And I work as part of an offset shop. I asked the question because if Art brought a traditional mechanical to us I'm sure my prepress dept. would be scratching heads. We're into smaller and smaller dots, these here are big, so I just wanted to know the process and how he communicates/communicated it to a printer. I'm seeing Y/M/K here... doubt the black was made using 4colors... just wanted a little history. As an aside, spot colors aren't necessarily cheaper or more expensive, depending on your job. You're still paying for plates, setup, ink, presstime, etc. just like any job. It's expensive because the majority of our jobs are 4color, and occasionally someone wants an added metallic spot color, which means another pass through our press. I like to go 4color and then Spot/Varn/Varn on the second pass.
Dirty secret of the printing industry. The more you know...the less you pay.
I go into a printer and I speak their language and they know that I know what's going on and what goes into it. I pay for that.
Some dude who thinks he knows what he's doing goes into the same place...asks too many questions and ends up paying for each one of them.
Knowledge is power.
i'm pretty sure hobb's posters are offset.
why would a printer turn down spot color printing? sometimes printers can be idiots.
i love the look of offset printing with flat eins on uncoated paper. It would be a great look for this poster.
i though hobbs did digital printouts?
meeloo , is there a tradition of chinese printers in berlin? we get great old school spot jobs (slightly off register) done in chinatown here.
the guy usually prints menus!
these days it's getting more and more difficult to find offset printers, that print spot colours at all. if they do, they want a lot of money for it. most of them have set up their machines for cmyk, printing one spot colour instead of varnish at most. but then, cmyk has become so ridiculously cheap.
I m surprised.
Lately, I asked two different printers and they refused to do it.
They both answered that one spot color is ok, but not a bichro or a trichro. Too much a pain in the ass. CMYK would be cheaper.
Hi Meeloo, I've sending posters to print that way a lot lately, I have to make the separations myself and send the file as a psd with spot channels though, it was cheaper than offset cause we only used 2 colors. I think the printer was in Netherlands
Offset printers print spot colors all the time. All the time. Constantly. Even with Direct to Plate systems it is no different printing spot colors than CMYK. One color...one plate. No different than CMYK.
Shit...fucking Hobbs posters are offset.
I guess itīs offset (but not a cmyk color separation).
3 pantones. Red, Yellow and Green. Basically, the colour separations works like for silkscreen. Flat colours. You could do that back in the days. But now, with the new generation of computer directed offset machines no printer wants to print that way anymore. Too much work.