I missed this comment the first time around somehow...
"And go jerk of to some Swede Death Metal Album covers. I hear if you stroke your taint 3 times while whackin it to a Manowar cover, the spirit of Odin overtakes you balls. "
Now I remember exactly why I dislike Rising Son.
Dude was going to sacrifice her in order to bring rain for the crops. But now that it's raining she has passed out. Dude is contemplating whether he should off her anyway as her old man is going to kick his ass if he brings her home in such a state. To compound the dilemma he now must consider the witness/accomplice.
Sorcerer, you'll have to go on my waiting list because Tenko posted first. You are correct in seeing that we could use a magic user. Tenko, there are 2 fighter types already, so if you make a 3rd you may not feel as useful. It might be better if you try another class, but the choice is yours. You can still be an elf and you can still specialize in the bow and be sorcerer or druid or whatever. I have a Rogue, cleric, fighter, paladin, and possibly a ranger, (I’m still waiting for Mikebgavin to respond). If he doesn’t respond by tomorrow, Sorcerer can join. So that leaves Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Wizard, and of course any multiclass combinations. Barbarians and Monks are fighter types, a Bard would be nice for dealing with people and their knowledge would mean you would know more than many people which could help you figure out what needs to be done. A Druid can be fun because of the wild shapes and at high levels the spells are impressive. Wizards can cast a larger variety of spells than a sorcerer, but a sorcerer can cast a lot of a few specific spells. A spell caster can be kind of hard for a beginning character to play but not impossible. I think a Bard or your original idea of a fighter would be easiest.
A lot of type was enlarged or shrunk on a stat camera in a darkroom - I don't know if that is the case here.
The first comment on the type was just a slag, not a crit. Even if the point is/was legit, a lot of people were lost on the tone alone.
If youre asking me, Shad, in 93 I was basically working with Letraset and I was really into the "squared out look", like the kid of boxed-justification you see on the back of Nirvana's BLEACH.
Stretching wasnt really too feasable at the time, but I remember even as early as 91 (I was in high school) I remembered seeing alot of Ned's Atomic Dustbin stuff witht the same streched text look I take issue with here and I thought it looked bad then too. DOnt really recall anyone thinking that Ned's "breaks the rules and pisses off "propper" design school of thoiught. "
In fact MaxFlo, by that logic, theres alot of Church Social Groups out there producing very "ROCK"styled t-shirts and newsletters.
If ONLY they new the history of how their Church Bulletins came to be so fuckin PUNK ROCK!
"This looks like ass, you suck."
"I made it look like ass on purpose, it's my gestalt. I was trying to channel the ass of my ancestors in design"
"Oh, it's awesome then, you're a genius"
Does all design have to be explained to be good? It seems like a lot of designers are just waiting for people to ask them about their choices.
The point is that stretching the text doesn't matter. It is part of a "style" of poster design. It isn't lazy. it is intended. I stretch type all the time in order to achieve this old school feel.
It breaks the rules and pisses off "propper" design school of thoiught.
Um....the text on this poster that I had originally taken issue with was obviously set in digitally. WITH a computer.
Again, my problem with this text is that I think (in my OPINION) that it detracts from the poster as a whole. If you are working on an entire poster, you should pay attention to all parts and make them work together.
This isnt about kerning, or digital or any of that. Even in 1993, stretched text looked bad, regardless of who did it. It would have taken LESS work on the artists part to NOT stretch the text. In my opinion, it would have made this poster work better.
Im not impugning Kuhn, or his history, or his aesthetic, the era he came up in or anything else people might want to reframe this as. You dont see alot of strecthed typography in the Family Dog Stuff (an NO, psychedlic type isnt the same thing), Peter Saville, Reid Miles, Saul Bass, virtually all the great s that predate Kuhn, so I dont think thats vaild.
Stretching typography. Either digitally, thru photostat, exposures, whatever, IS and HAS been for a long time a LAZY solution to a design problem. It compromises the type and looks cheap. And that doesnt have a damn thing to do with computers.
Is Kuhn a legendary artist worthy of respect? Certainly. But that doesnt make his type choice a good one.
Sorry, just my opinion.
I don't see anything really wrong with digitaly distressing stuff. I create all kinds of hand distresssed textures and scan them. I am not all that interested in dragging an illo I spent 12 hours on around behind my car for 20 minutes just to prove a point.
I also don't have anything against digital offset prints as a means to get started in the poster biz. It worked for me.
It seems like being anti-design is pretty dumb too. People were picking on Aestetic Apparatus, but I haven't seen any posters where it wasn't clear they were thinking about the band.
People doing a Shins poster with skulls is just as dumb as Cross' "viking funeral"
The last time I saw Crash Worship was at Mardi Gras a few years ago. They poured vinegar on me and the only pair of jeans I had with me. I stank for the entire ride back to Ohio.
Lindsey is an innovator. Making comments on older posters without putting them into the context of when they were created is moronic.
I totally agree with everything you say dave, except "if you worked in an ad agency, you would fail doing it any other way. "
I've worked for Ad Agencies, full time, but mostly as a freelance as an interactive designer. It's just as "corrupt" as posters. People come up with ideas because they love monkeys. want to win award shows, or build a better book to get a better job. It's total creatives masturbation, no different form the complaints people have about posters. It's probably 100 times more actually, the design culture here pales by comparison. The only difference is that posters don't have any sort of client approval or filtering process. Especially posters done for the venue.
JohnA, I wish i could remember which poster.... that would be fun to reflect on. I think it was actually a designer vs. illustrator argument, but I could be wrong.
Phila - don't worry, we can all read..... :wink:
farmbarn you can say i "twisted" your words, however it was a direct quote.
you then continued to put your foot in your mouth.
you can curse all you want, and tell me to go "fuck myself"
wont change a thing. im amazed at the lack of your vision.
"Actually I do posters becuase I want to be liked by people the people I admire on gig, so fuck the band, fuck the fans, and fuck you."
Can you clarify this for me, because I think I'm not quite grasping what you're saying here.
JohnA, like I said to Gex I completely agree with you...but if you look at our posters I think you'll notice we go through an extensive distressing process before we hit command P.
Philaarts, you took what I said an twisted it around, and thats when I clarified my statement. Actually I do posters becuase I want to be liked by people the people I admire on gig, so fuck the band, fuck the fans, and fuck you.
I was just trying to point out that it is one thing to digitally produce a poster and just hit control p when you are done and an entirely different matter to take it some steps futher in production which becomes a PART of the craft itself.
and Zach, it's bowl of dicks, thanks. :mrgreen:
no mikebarn, you posted about the clients etc AFTER i pointed out how retarded your approach was.
keep on doing what you do. maybe a design mag will show one of your posters.. oh the joy.
your priorites are skewed. you changed your "statement" after you were called out on it.
you are a wankery designer who cares about your peers too much. live with it.
JGex, I completely agree with you...I work for a apperal company designing t-shirts...screen-printing is an art in it's own right. I am always blown away but some of the techniques and attention to detail on this website. I seriously wish I had the time and space to screen-print right now, but we don't and like I said earlier sometimes you have to play the hand your dealt.
Lindsey has never been a favorite of mine, I respect him for what he does though...he does make damn fine posters...just yeah, usually to me the subject matter is unappealing, the illustration is alright at best...or the colors irritate me. But fact is that he's been doing this longer than almost anybody here, he gets tons of work and makes a good living at it. I think some people have tall poppy syndrome.
One funny thing is, while all this ranting was going on here. Lindsey was doing art shows in two different states and had a third state earlier this month. Right now sure he's on his way to Flatstock to show more of his work and mix in some skateboarding/snowboarding in between. Dude makes a living between this and a skateboard company he owns and he could care less what people think about this. All this time, some of you are content to just wank out a fiery digital print as an excuse to put it up here and jerk each other off. Put it to bed ya fuckin' doucherockets.
Hey philaarts quit being a huge douchebag and read all the posts...I posted this yesterday.
"The first thing we do is try and make our clients happy, if it wasn't for the clients there wouldn't be any posters...I said I rather be ACCEPTED by fellow designers. Complete different statement. "
my last comment on this.
i rather see a poster for some show for a venue that was....
a. not great, but the designers INTENT was to rep the band and appeal to the fans
b. an artist who doesnt put the band/fan first
if you are gonna do an ad, do it for the client. if you worked in an ad agency, you would fail doing it any other way.
doing a venue poster idependantly from direct contact with the band should at least have the intent to help, not wankery.
im outta here.
It's also very egotistical, and sometimes completely unrealistic to think that your vision is always better than the band's. Some bands have members that are visual artists.... for instance, The Flaming Lips. Who here is going to tell Coyne that THEIR vision is better than his?
On the other hand, there are definitely bands who need a little visual help. Still, the art, when done for legit merch, album covers, or t-shirts, still goes through some sort of approval process.
When we or other artists do posters just for the venue or promoter, the band is very often excluded from the process. Most of the time, that probably isn't a problem, but how many discussions have there been here about posters not really repping a band very well?
I can think of more than a few myself. And there are plenty of posters that have been done for some of the clients we work with very closely, and many definitely do not reflect the bands image.
But what do I know?
what makes me laugh is when an artist says that the band "needs" the designers vision to represent them visually.
dont these bands pay thousands to get cd covers, shirts, stickers designed to their/record company/merch specifications? its not like they are clueless in using artwork for their band without poster designers... think about it, they hired someone else for mass distribution.
to think that your vision is better then what the band chooses for widspread promo/merch is self serving and ignorant.
I totally agree with dave and Fisher. These posters are for BANDS & FANS.
Ya know, I almost can't wait for bands to start cracking down on posters done with no approvals from them. I wouldn't even want to guess how many posters are done that fail the bands while the designer is worried about what their peers will leave as comments on this board.
i responded to this before.. but i have to say it again.. this barn dude is why rock posters have become lame. with this attitude
Would you rather be accepted by fellow designers or the public?
For me, I'd rather be accepted by someone like Michael A., Dusty, or Robert Lee, not some douchebag going to see a TapRoot concert."
this is the problem. you make a coke commercial to appeal to customers, not to impress other designers.
its backwards and killing posters.
I skipped the last half of the comments...so if I'm repeating, fuck it.
This was done in '93. It did a lot more poster-wise than the people currently pissing and moaning about it. Times change and hindsight is 50-50. Get over it. Still a nice piece, regardless of the type. Probably more of an effort back then, than today's font-o-rama bucket drops.
"All you can see is a piece of paper with symbols placed on it in a way that is not pleasing to the way your brain has been formatted."
This is good, sometimes I think that the more I learn, the less I'm able to do.
The first thing we do is try and make our clients happy, if it wasn't for the clients there wouldn't be any posters...I said I rather be ACCEPTED by fellow designers. Complete different statement.
John A - believe you me, it pisses no one off more than us that our posters aren't screen-printed. Just becuase they aren't doesn't discredit us for our designs, and just becuase someone designed a screen-printed poster doesn't make it better. I do agree with you 100%, I don't want this fiery in my yard either, but you have to play the hand your dealt at certain times.
Other designers likeing my work is nothing more than a bonus. I don't design anything with them in mind. I try to make the bands and fans happy first and foremost.
I could honestly care less what people like Michael Apperatus thinks of my posters. In fact if he likes them I am probably doing something very, very wrong.
Never mind the fact that Im 30 and have worked in virtually every prnting medium from Linoleum to (yes) Screens and back again.
I only started doing concert posters 6 months ago.
I do them fre and we print them digital because there is NO BUDGET at all, and I believe in what the promoter is trying to do, bringin quality music acts (Bowling For Soup notwithstanding) to a town that doesnt support it.
But then, that doesnt fit into your prefab argument.
"Lindsey made this and screen printed it big with his own hands when you were still wishing for your first big wheel you fucking labiabunion. Go hump on your little ILL digital offsets."
And by that rationale, Thomas Kinkade is a better artist than all three of us because he PAINTS all of his stuff.
Im gonna get into your threats. No thanks.
So lemme get this straight. Youve got a mean nasty client that doesnt liek their stuff on the internet? Fuck it, Ill buy that.
So they get ALL your best work and there isnt any otehr great stuff you could show me?
Where can I see your fine, fine cache of brilliant work Mr Goodtimes?
Cause the shit youve got on this site isnt all that great, and the stuff Barn has on here cleans your shits clock every hour on the hour.
Nobody here is crying, Goodtimes.
Youre the one that started acting like a pouty bitch.
Whats the matter? Mom find your stash again? Shit wouldnt happen if youd just padlock the basement door.
I live on the rock art board with a bunch of other people. I work fast I have plenty of time to BS.
I'm sure there's a wanker design board that's looking for a couple fine fellows like yourself.
You're such crybabies.
All I do is production art. That's a hoot.
Richie, if being safe is considering type with the design and not cramming type into a given space becuase I didn't think about it when I was laying out out the poster... Then I hope I'm safe for the rest of my design/poster career.
I think this poster was done in the early 90's, around the time Lindsey & Frank were laying the foundation for the current poster art explosion with layouts & type treatment just like this. After years of seeing certain fonts and squeezed type on posters, sure it looks a little tired. When this was done though, it was all the rage. This stuff- and Lindsey- played a HUGE role in getting us where we are today.
"You are the problem.'
Right. Barns doing some REALLY tight work.
But hey, you just keep clingin to the past there guy and hope nothing else comes along to shake up your little idea of what the poster world should be.
Would you rather be accepted by fellow designers or the public?
For me, I'd rather be accepted by someone like Michael A., Dusty, or Robert Lee, not some douchebag going to see a TapRoot concert."
well if i was doing a poster for taproot, foremost i would aim to please the taproot fan, not another artist. see, the posters are for the bands.
anyway, have a good night yall.
Would you rather be accepted by fellow designers or the public?
For me, I'd rather be accepted by someone like Michael A., Dusty, or Robert Lee, not some douchebag going to see a TapRoot concert.
SO what yore saying then philaarts.com, is that in this situation, the text is the most effective way to go?
The Venue Info wouldnt be MORE effective by not stretching th shit out of it and its just a faggy design snob issue?
"You can have heart and follow your gut AND make the elements work together (or at least have them work against each other in an interestign way) without being some pompous design snob. "
I think I pretty much agree with this. Doucherocket or not.
richie gets paid to do design that appeals to the general public. that is the most effective design. not impressing other designers.
the ladybug costume sometimes might make you think he isnt right in the head, but the dude is hellasmart.
The problem is that Richie seems to have a hard on for reframing problems with the text as Artist V. Designer or Heart/Instinct V. Technique. Naturally, this has gotten turned into yet ANOTHER GigPosters debate with only two, rigid sides.
Try to get what I am saying here:
You can have heart and follow your gut AND make the elements work together (or at least have them work against each other in an interestign way) without being some pompous design snob. THATS what natural artists do all the time.
I don't think I have been arguing? I was just adding to discussion. I also would never trash somebodies work out of spite. Either I like it or I don't Who made it or what I think of them as a person has little to do with my feelings about art or design.
You can see my stuff at:
Fell free to rip it to shreds (sort of expecting it now)
I do posters for free to help out my promoter friend. The bands like em, the promoter likes em and I think they work AND I think Im improving all the time, so at the end of the day Im happy.
Not what I said. I didn't compare myself to you.
You compared yourself to me. Why, I don't know. All I said was I've seen your work.
I never said I was better than you. I never added myself to the equation.
I'm only an observer.
That must be it.
I just dont understand the DIY aesthetic either.
IN FACT. I was born the day I started posting here.
My entire history, my entire LIFE even is only 6 months old.
I havent done or created anything except for whats on this site here.
This is the sum of my entire being.
See, its easy for you to create a character in your head, pretend its me, and throw stones at it. Go right ahead.
You dont know anything about me except fro what youve gleaned from this narrow part of my life.
And since YOURE always here, and Im not, that makes it an even MORE narrow part of my life.
But you go on with your sumg sense of self-satisfaction pal. That and your contrarian schtick (which is getting kind of old) shoudl do ya just fine.
Oh, I agree with all that.
I'm just stating my opinion - my reaction to this poster.
I'm sure it was successful on that level.
However, I have no emotional/nostalgic connection to this poster and to me it's just a great illustration with bad type tacked on.
Hey RISING SON...
You sound like a pretty intellectual fella.
I appreciate yr argument...and as I have some free time watching my daughter while her momma naps, I welcome the debate.
But when you start pulling out 'cunt' and that type of stuff...man, you just destroy your whole 'intellectual' base.
Like, is that necessary? Argue yr point like a MAN.
"as Michael A said, the type should be treated with as much care as the rest of the imagery ."
prehaps it was.
the best thing is, you all can make a poster the way YOU want it. and knowing lindsey, he probably wont care about this whole "crit"
"It is an art school term. Rising Son had to go look it up. That's why he's been so quiet. "
Quiet, you dumb cunt?
Look below. My last post was 4 minutes ago.
You can eat my ass with your design school bullshit. Didnt go. Didnt need to.
Noticed you didnt respond to my remark about whackin it to Manowar covers. Does that mean youre oiling up and poppin in your copy of Beastmaster?
I like the illustration... but the text on the right is distroted in photoshop... and this hurt my eyes... to have a more powerfull poster, as Michael A said, the type should be treated with as much care as the rest of the imagery . Otherwise it looks added on in the end and cheapens the whole thing.
All Im saying is this:
I agree with designers like Chantry and Bass that have said that design is a 'language'. Its a way to relay info to a certain crowd of people.
Now, this type was not aimed at folks who are 'educated designers': it was aimed at punk rock kids...who could care less in most cases about the kerning or the font, or whatever. In fact, it was an effective LANGUAGE Lindsey spoke in here: it HIT it's mark. This is evidenced by the fact that:
-the poster is sought after/collected
-this poster is one of many that have used this same style of type-treatment. Lindsey takes a lot of the same treatment that Kozik used early on. So did a lot of us, at some point in our careers. So the language 'WORKS'. Its been COPIED. Even if it's 'wrong'.
Now, from what Ive heard, the unltimate goal in design is accessing the viewer...moving them to action. So, if this treatment DID that...sold tickets to the show...and was EMBRACED by a segement of the culture...how can it be BAD DESIGN? It WORKED. The communication was successful.
Thats like hearing someone speaking in fluent Spanish and critting them for using poor English.
Well considering I know lindsey very well I would venture to guess that he didn't lazily do anything. And it almost surely was done from the gut. he doesn't do shit any other way.
Just for one second imagine that he actually wanted the text to look exactly as it does.
Considering niehter Lindsey nor Richie is an "illustrator" the whole Illustrator-vs- designer thing doesn't apply.
Richie is talking about working from the gut -vs- working from a design book argument.
If I understand him correctly.
We don't do designer vs. illustrator anymore.
This is biggger.
This is the who what when where how. This is the gestalt. All you can see is a piece of paper with symbols placed on it in a way that is not pleasing to the way your brain has been formatted.
"The type appears to be an after thought. Like, it wasn't part of the composition and just pasted on at the end. It's distracting because it has the same visual weight as the illustration which sort of flattens the whole thing out.
Just my two cents of art school bullshit."
see, i dig this. he isnt saying how it should be, just his opinion. unlike the barn guy.
Jeezus you guys. I am just discussing my opinion the the type on this poster.
To me type should be treated with as much care as the rest of the imagery on the poster. Otherwise it looks added on in the end and cheapens the whole thing.
I have no doubt that Lindsey Kuhn is the real deal, a pioneer, etc.
What I am saying, as a "designery type," and "wanker" is that the type in this poster does not appeal to me, and does not fit the feel of the illustration. My opinion. I get it; I just don't like it. I know you don't care what I think, so this whole thing is pointless to argue about.
I have to go design a pamphlet.
"You're wrong fucktard. Go make a pamphlet."
And go jerk of to some Swede Death Metal Album covers. I hear if you stroke your taint 3 times while whackin it to a Manowar cover, the spirit of Odin overtakes you balls.
And Im not apologizing for being mutli-talented thanks. Ive designed a little bit of everything in my career and Im not gonna hide that.
Fuck your out-moded notions.
"The thing that a lot of you designery types will never understand is that the guy who made this poster (again from soup to nuts) is the most authentic, DIY, genuine cool motherfuckers to ever walk the earth. "
Noones disputing that.
But that has nothing to do with that being a text treatment that brings down the whole piece.
You can have you little played out Designer vs Illustrator bullshit argument all day long and pump up your feelings of self-satisfaction. Dont give a shit.
That text treatment sucks and it has a detrimental effect on the piece.
The irony of your ridiculous argument is that YOU think I should take into consideration what a great guy this artist is supposed to be when jusdging this piece WHILE AT THE SAME TIME imagining some stereotype of who IM supposed to be and responding to that.
The type appears to be an after thought. Like, it wasn't part of the composition and just pasted on at the end. It's distracting because it has the same visual weight as the illustration which sort of flattens the whole thing out.
Just my two cents of art school bullshit.
The thing that a lot of you designery types will never understand is that the guy who made this poster (again from soup to nuts) is the most authentic, DIY, genuine cool motherfuckers to ever walk the earth.
And your "purity" is based on a narrow opinion of what a poster designer is supposed to be.
Sorry, I dont think's its actually up to you to define that.
You can strawman people all day with comparisons to some pretentious designer charicature all you want.
Just like I could charicature you as a gearhead contrarian too in love with a bullshit scene mythology to see around it.
Never went to design school.
Im self taught by living with media around me all the time, as are most people. Thats the world were in.
Will a shitty text treatment dissuade peeps from goin to this show? Of course not. But then whats the point of doing any of the stuff we do.
And if this was all about what most people notice right off the bat, there'd hardly be reason for most of these posters to exist at all.
Its not all mercenary