The dude in Burzum really is a racist fuckhead. He really is. He recently ecaped from prison and was recaptured. He only had 2 yeras left on his sentence. Now he got 2 more added. He says he is no longer a racist though.
ok. please explain to me how burzum isn't racist. or that that fella (from burzum - i forget his name) in jail for killing euronomous still isn't a racist weirdo. please explain to me just HOW these guys weren't completly narrow and predjudice in virtually all of their opinions about everybody different from them? jesy because they didn't sinle out black folks doesn't mean shit. they hated everybody. therefore racism is in there and present at the base, whether they singled out anybody or not. their entire philosophy was based on exclusion.
i don't get you. trying to claim this stuff didn't have racism coursing right through the whole thing is like defending the kkk because they like ashcroft. it doen't make sense to me that it's isn't inherently racist.
besides, who cares?
Oh, and gor the record I am not, like mad or anything. These words are nto angry or pissed off. It just happens to be the ONE thing I know something about. I am generaly lost in music conversations around here. Allow me my moment.
Thats is the exact scene I am talking about. the OLD Scandanavian scene. Not a racist genre of music in general. If you ask other people to keep their facts straight about stuff YOU care about, the least you could do is return the favor. I'm sure most of the things I think about the Seattle scene you would dispute as not factual. You blasted me about not knowing proper poster history in the Hess thread so I'm only asking from you, what aksed from me.
what seems to be happening here is a problem with definition and semantics. when i refer to 'black metal", i refer explicitly to what happened in norway (and sweden) back in the old euronomous/burzum/mayhem/dead/etc/days. i have no idea what passes for 'black metal ' today. don't much care either. i thought the music dull and predictable - a cliche. if the term 'black metal' is being used to day to define a different subculture, well, then, maybe we are both right and both wrong at the same time. seems like a very small deal to me. the black metal scene i read about was racist. so what?
punk has changed in so many ways since the mid-70's that i can barely recognize what passes thes days for punk when i compare it to what i was weened on back in the 70's. it couldn't be more different. and most the time "skinheads" are not victorian/retro/violence/fetishists from london with a taste for national front politics anymore, either. things change, ok?
so, i don't give a good goddam if black metal is racist "anymore". i'm only talking about what i learned was 'black metal', which is the scene i read about.
if you got a problem with that, keep it to yourself.
Todays Black Metal barely even resembles old school Black Metal. I like both. I prefer modern Hardcore now days to most other stuff. Medium paced, crunchy and fairly predictable. I'm old. I really do still listen to all types of metal on regular basis though.
Around the time when black metal was being birthed I grew bored with the sound and drifted into post-punk. I still don't listen to BM for pleasure, but I find the whole subculture fascinating, as I do with any group of ex-metal kids who warped into other things.
So my statement that I actualy know these people and know for a fact that a vast majority of them are not racist doesn't effect your view at all Art? If anything they are a little snotty about Scandanavia and believe it to be the greatest place on earth. Reports on quality of life kind of support that sentiment.
Kozik, Black metal isn't really as big in Sweden as Norway. So good chance you wouldn't really see too many kids cruising around with Corpse Paint. Most of them don't wear it around all day anyway. Also, the vast majority of the old Black Metal guys are just that... OLD. Thye may have been skinny little dorks in tights 10 years ago. The world keeps on spinning you know. Your not likely to see the guys from Mayhem or Dark Funeral walking around with swords and battle axes and shit. I mean, come on. Most of them are Bikers now.
All of that said, there are racists and racist views in some of the Black Metal scene. The same can be said for a whole bunch of other scenes. I knew a whole bunch of punks that were not exactly tolerant of other races. A few bad apples doesn't spoil the whole barrel. My problem with Black Metal is that it's only one little hair away from Glam, which I find to be a little gay. I like the music and I think it's a much more interesting genre than Glam. All of the make up and drama is pretty lame though. Funny at times but pretty lame. it's an aweful lot like the Gangsta rap wars we had in the mid 90's here in the states.
Black Metal is going to be the next flavor of the month. Just watch. It's getting HUGE again with kids. All of my son's friends listen to it. I am nearly sold out of my Dimmu Borgir posters. Fastest selling poster I have ever done next to Slayer.
I listen to Black Metal. I am not a racist. Never have been.
Without getting into the sticky realm of race theory, Lords of Chaos looked at a small part of the much larger black metal scene, a bunch of kids who were basically like well-off D&D geeks who took it too seriously. A lot of them are into Nordic nationalism, which in itself is not inherently racist, though there are certainly many who take it that far. I didn't do a BM newsletter, but I did a bunch of art for various zines and was deep into the tape trading scene back then (mid-late '80s), so got all the early records and demos. Sold 'em all off.
Some people don't realize that you are stupid though Art. It requires a genius such as myself to point it out to everyone.
You know what music scene seems ultra racist to me. Rockabilly. Every rockadoodle I run across turns out to be an ex skinhead. I didn't read that in a book.
so what if it sux? most arguments on this site suck big. and so what if i got a racist impression of black metal. frankly i'm very very surpirsed that this is being challenged so intensely. there was nothing in their philosophy or activities or attitudes that did NOT include racism.
so, maybe i'm wrong, but i can't figure out how.
so, i'll wait for somebody to explain or otherwise change my impression. and yes, a book (or anything at all) would be useful.
but so far you guys have only offered the explanation that plantweed used to do a newsletter. somehow that doesn't change much, as much as i respect plantweed. something better than all of your "say-so" is needed.
and calling me stupid doesn't really have much information in it either.
Black Metal IS racist. It's all about Norse Supremacy and shit. Tell you what, when I went to Sweden during the hiegth of it I saw ZERO corpse paint dudes. I asked about it and all the 'rocker' types I was hanging out with said it was basically just a bunch of dweeby suburban kids who would get their asses kicked when they came into town.
I saw on the news that George Bush is a great guy and is doing a really great job. Until the news tells me otherwise that is what I'm going to believe.
So what I'm saying here Art is your argument sucks.
well, until somebody else comes up with a book telling a story of black metal that is that fun and crazy and isn't racist, i'll stick my my impressions of racism. so, i suggest you start writing.
besides, who cares what i think about black metal. my opinion is hardly a show stopper.
besides, trying to say that black metal isn't racist because there are some people involved who aren't demonstrably racist (sorta like one good apple sweetens the whole barrel) is like saying the mormon church isn't inherently racist because they finally let a few people of color join up - never mind they still can't get into heaven any more than women can.
(there, that ought to touch a few nerves.)
To say black metal is inherently racist just cos of the Lords of Chaos book is way off the mark. I was there at the birth of Scandinavian black metal (I did art for the zines). The book is good (I just reread it) but is just one side of the story.
max - but of course, the personal agenda thing is pretty much how anybody approaches any subject at any time. it's the nature of reporting. and it is all automatically suspect because it's written by people like you an me - literally anybody who wants to write it. expertise and accuracy is not required on any level.
so, we need to be careful, or just have fun with the mythology that seems to evolve on it's own. that's always the better story anyway. you couldn't make up a myth any better than the 'lords of chaos' story. enjoy it.
that nirvana book out of new york (i am assuming you are talking about michael azzarad's book) is far more accurate and honest than anything written from the "insider" point of view (which is pretty much charlie cross's bundle of bs) about cobain.
micheal azzarad actually hung out with kurt and work intmately with him on the developement of the book. he literally live through the whole explosion and was involved.
charlie's book is total crap. i know, because i was there with charlie through the whole "grunge" phenom and he had absolutely zero involvement. in fact, he fought to exclude nirvana from the rocket because he thought they would never amount to anything. he was of a mind that bruce springsteen was more important than anything local. i fact, i happened to sit behind him when he saw nirvana for the first time - it was at the coliseum (now key center), a 60,000 seat venue, and it was like nirvana's second or third national tour. i can safely say he never once had any involvement with nirvana until that point. the "insider" book was written by a bigger outsider than the new york book.
get it yet? outsiders often have less personal agenda to fullfil.
I'm writing a book on Art Chantry and the Seattle scene. It's all about why he left.
See what happened was is that Art is a huge nazi and he got run out of Seattle after a couple of wacky misadventures with an Eskimo girl named PuPu.
It makes for a great story. What happened happened.
if you want accuracy, become an historian. otherwise, stay away from pop culture. there is very little accuracy or factuality in the pop culture process. it's all about myth-building.
in fact most history is stunningly inaccurate, too. if you study history, you'll find that out very quickly.
I thought bands like Turbonegro were just using the term "black metal" as a new term instead of death metal, not for racist views. But then again when they started they wore big afros with fake huge lips. Hmmmm...there could be something there.
That book is SOOOOO flawed in it's facts it's rediculous. Burzum and Absurd are the 2 main bands focused on in that book. Those bands are most definetly racist bands. More because of the individuals in the bands than the scene they came from. And keep in mind Absurd were not from Scandanavia. Mayhem was based purely on hate for Christianity. The fact that some of those bands push the Norse ideals does not make them racsist. It's more about pre Christian Norse tradition than race.
If you are basing all of your knowlegde of Black Metal on that book your not getting the whole picture. Your not even getting a half the picture. You are in fact getting an outsiders view. That book was writen by an outsider.
Thats like reading a book about Nirvana writen by a guy who lives in New York and thinking you know everything about the Seattle scene.
but i have to admit, even though those black metal bands are stunningly stupid, they do have convictions. i mean, eating the brains of a guy whose name was "dead" smacks of some sort flatworm-level primitive genius.
mike knows a thing or two about this stuff. i always thought a lot of the bands were "nordic pride" or whatever. more of a Ragnar Redbeard "Might is Right" thing, than neo-nazi though. a little dose of nihilism or satanism for added flavor. i don't know shit about black metal, i really like the t-shirts though.
nah. i just read "lords of chaos". black metal is based on racist ideas.
you have to get your "sub genres" correct. were talking about burzum and mayhem here. all or at least most of those balck metal bands in scndanavia base their philosophies on rascist concepts. no great secret there.
it was a band called black jack. they were from portland. i doubt estrus knows what a real "black metal" band is to this day. they just thought they were a metal band. a pretty good one at that. he got a package thatw as a little more than he thought.
and, yes black metal (as opposed to death metal or heavy metal or thrash or whatever you want) is racist. that's like saying water is wet.
Since when is Black Metal generaly racist? It's pretty free from politics for the most part. There are indeed some racist Black Metal bands, but they are pretty fringe and not very popular.
the majority of Black Metal bands are to busy hating Christians to hate anybody else.
another time they were playing at the kustom kulture show in seattle. at the time they hated seattle and it's snobs, and especially the hipper-than-thou art snobs. so, at coca (center on centemporary art) they were playing to an art opening. there was this stage platform made out of plywood and the sound was horrible and even the house lights were on (insurance). michael got frustrated at the crowd as they just stood there and stared, so he began jumping up and down as hard as he could while he sang. he was doing his damndest to smash the satge to bits. unfortunately, it was the old u-men tour stage (larry reid installed it with milo) and it was built to withstand a nuke.
after a frustrating while of michael exhausting himself trying to smash the stage, one of the little girls who were the sort of 'doyens' that night went up to him and pulled on his sleeve and quietly said, "mr. maker, please don't break out stage." michael just stared at her in disbelief and and very politely said, "but it's part of our act!"
like i said - no respect!
Kind of a bummer Jay isn't in the band anymore. He finally retired. I would of thought Jamie would've split first because he was always home sick and missed his kid. We'd be raging at my house and he'd always be in my bedroom on the phone talking to his kid. That's cool.
Yeah, they were nuts! Top of the game. Seering, fuzzed out mayem with Jagger on crack vocals! I remember some at the Casbah yelled out " You look like Prince"! Michael jumped off stage and bitch slapped this goon. then they launched into Lover, Lover. Brilliant!
michael always like to toss a beer. i remember at one 3B show he was hanging from the speakers (which hung precariously from the cieling on chains) and threw bottle of beer at the brick wall with all his might. it just sorta bounced and clocked him in the head. knocked him off the speaker.
like i said, things always went south on them. cracked me up.
That Prince Ref was funny. I didn't see him in along time, and when he came up to me at a show, I asked him "Where do i know you from?" It was funny, I ribbed him good...(throw a good beer in my face...hahah)
another great maker story:
at a grageshock, there was an estrus band called 'blackjack' from portland area. turns out they were sort of a 'black metal' band and they had corpse paint and really racist lyrics and the whole shebang. estrus folks were mortified (being extremely sensistive to issues of racism). people started mouthing off at them and they mouthed off back. it got ugly, and the makers (in the audience) took justice into their own hands and got into a big fight (several makers have ethnic heritage.) now, some of those blackjack guys were HUGE, but the makers (two of the makers were golden gloves) plowed right into the assholes. after the dust setttled, blackjack was kicked out of the show and then they were dumped from the label. this was the only fight that ever happened at a garageshock.
the makers played right after the fight, and they got a hero's welcome. now here's the funny part (and strangely poignant). jay, the drummer, managed to badly break his hand on the big bassist's jawbone. but he didn't let it stop him. he wrapped his hand in a bloody rag and went on to pound out a hell of a set.
I got to see them on the Hunger tour in Columbus, OH of all places - it was a seering show. They were amazing. But the glam thing had already started to rear its head - Mike was walking thru the crowd prior to the show, and a lot of people thought he was - I swear - the singer from he Prince coverband that were playing at the club the next night.
I picked up my first Chantry that night, too. The promo poster for Hunger. Simple sweet stuff. Blistering tunes.
Tara and I are staying with them during Flatstock 3. The whole band has stayed with me when they come through town ever since the hunger era. Michael's a extremely nice guy as well as Donny. I miss the old parties we used to have at my house dancing to the wee hours to Otis Redding and beating Michael in a Beatles trivia contest. Love 'em like brothers. I rmember one time I went on the road with them for like 6 different cites. It was a huge never ending party. I remember going to this guys house in San Diego for an after party. When the Makers arrived they backed into the driveway too far and fence got snagged on the rear bumper. Then when they were leaving the party they tore out of the driveway so fast not knowing they just completely ripped down this huge long chailink fence. Sadly, it was so fucking funny. I feel a bit sorry for the dude having the party.
ya know, sitting here looking back and reminiscing about the makers, it's sorta mind-boggling how amazing they were in their prime. they were the REAL THING. they completely lived their credo. they had awesome integrity and were like nothing i'd ever encountered outside of a motorcycle club.
white trash farm boys from spokane washington gone seriously wrong.
they were actually 100% tough. absolutley no bullshit about them. that was NOT an act. you fucked with them or theirs, you heard about.
i remember one show in LA that got so nasty that the LAPD (no less) had to escort them out of the hall because they pissed off a bunch of gun-toting gangbangers. they kept fighting with them and a whole bunch of them wanted to literally kill them.
having the LAPD escort them out was kinda humiliating, but funny.
every time the makers tried to pull off their toughness, it sorta went wrong on them.
no respect, ya know?
As Art said... When we played that show, after Mike threw a full beer in my face after our last song. Mike, Jammie, and Evan(bossmartian) kicked the shit out of this guy who was bugging my (at time my pregnut girl friend).
here is a little more "context" for this poster:
when this poster was made, it was right at the height of the makers' "bad boy" street gang image they had. it was right after their poster i did for the las vegas show that looked like an old j.d. movie poster that sez "oh, no!.. it's the makers" on it (i think it's on gp).
anyway, at the time, a member of the makers actually had a bench warrant out for his arrest and he was sorta 'on the lam' during the tour. the story goes that he had a friend that was 'date-raped'. so, he showed up at the rapist's house with a baseball bat. when the guy refused to answer the door, he went after his car parked outside, and totaled it! so, there were charges against him, but everybody was on his side.
you can say all the bad things you want about the makers, but they had a sort of street integrity and loyalty that was extreme and even noble. all the more reason it was such a shock when they changed.
so, with that context, it's a lot more interesting as a poster conceptually, right?
that's the first time i've ever noticed a kruger feel to this poster. interesting.
actually, this is an old old poster (i don't know who posted it) - maybe 1994 or 95. at the time i was really into those old 'gossip' mags from the fifties (confidential, whisper, etc.) and REALLY into the cheezy detective magazines of the same period. i LOVED the photos of the bad guys being hauled away in chains - especially when they still tried to look cool.
so, the red bar was a combination of a censor bar of the detective mags and the red ink treatments you saw in the gossip mags. which happens to be the very same place that kruger got her idea.
Great red! Slightly rough texture blends nicely with the grainy photo & off-white background.
Band name placement at lower third of design is top notch.
Generally nice composition. Entire piece can be broken down into rectangles. Only thing that seems a bit off is the "Oh No!" box. Maybe too perfectly centered, & might have looked better & more cohesive if it had a slight tilt like the rest of the info. Bottom text in the two black boxes might seem a tad heavy, but it works. Overall score: 80
Artist is capable of much better.
Just kidding Art.